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PM Actually, since both sides are racist, joining knights because they are also human is a solid enough, if ugly, reason.
In fact, the word "racist" shouldn't apply here, it's more like "specie-ist". Elves and dwarves look lilke humans, but they aren't even remotely human. When push comes to shove, neither side is terribly interested in coexistence. To humans, Geralt will always be a "white-haired freak", but he'll still be among his own kind. However, if nonhumans come out on top after all things shake out, someone WILL want to put Geralt's head on a stick sooner or later, his accomplishments and non-human friends notwithstanding. Because amongst non-humans even a FORMER d'honne will always stand out like a sore thumb, and be resentfully remembered, and treated like a reminder of vanquished occupants.
No, it's "every species for themselves", just like Warhammer 40,000. Plus, I saw the results of Scoia'tael terrorism first-hand, and the knights' brutality is only hearsay as far as I'm concerned. And I have high hopes for Siegfried.
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[GENERAL] Who do you support - Squirrels or Knights?
13.02.2008 @ 15:51 #42
The elves aren't really a separate species. The most accepted definition is that different species can't produce fertile offspring, and half-elves are very much fertile. Not to mention the various humanoid fantasy races are still more similar than e.g. various races of dogs.
Most humans don't consider the mutant witchers "human".
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Actually, since both sides are racist, joining knights because they are also human is a solid enough, if ugly, reason.
Most humans don't consider the mutant witchers "human".
13.02.2008 @ 17:17 #43
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The elves aren't really a separate species. The most accepted definition is that different species can't produce fertile offspring, and half-elves are very much fertile. Not to mention the various humanoid fantasy races are still more similar than e.g. various races of dogs.
So WHAT! Just because interspecies breeding is viable under the biological rules of Witcher-verse doesn't mean jack diddly squat. Elves and humans aren't two branches of the same tree; in fact, humans "may be" (I don't know if it is confirmed in the books or not) an outside species just like graviers and kikimores (and whatever else got dumped in by the Convergence of the Spheres). Elves certainly don't see humans as anything better than the alien beasts (monkey-men anyone?). Admittedly, for a good reason - nobody likes an invader, especially if the said invader is as good at taking and holding as humans are.
Neither side of the conflict holds the high moral ground because neither side is willing to compromise. In fact, until both humans and non-humans bleed each other dry to the point where everyone's survival depends on a compromise, there's no good reason to even try to coexist! So, humans kill and rape elves. Elves turn right back around and slaughter humans indiscriminately. Why not? Wars are hell, and they are generally fought mercilessly until one side wins or both sides are thoroughly annihilated. This ain't a Forgotten Realms world where beautiful people on both sides of the conflict suddenly find an understanding and forge a lasting peace. In fact, this is closer to how things shake down in real world.
And, since there's no moral high ground and no way to preserve your neutrality, you might as well join up with the side that is less likely to butcher you when it wins. Either way, you will be cooperating with people who have done some abhorrent things as a means to an end.
That is not dead, which can eternal lie -
And in strange eons, even Death may die.
And in strange eons, even Death may die.
13.02.2008 @ 17:19 #44
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So WHAT! Just because interspecies breeding is viable under the biological rules of Witcher-verse doesn't mean jack diddly squat. Elves and humans aren't two branches of the same tree; in fact, humans "may be" (I don't know if it is confirmed in the books or not) an outside species just like graviers and kikimores (and whatever else got dumped in by the Convergence of the Spheres). Elves certainly don't see humans as anything better than the alien beasts (monkey-men anyone?). Admittedly, for a good reason - nobody likes an invader, especially if the said invader is as good at taking and holding as humans are.
How elves see humans is not relevant. They're pretty obviously related, even if both sides won't admit it. And it's hard to find a human with not a bit of elven blood in his veins (and vice versa). The Nazis also didn't see Jews as anything better than beasts, that doesn't mean they were right. The elves believe that humans evolved while they were created, but it's not certain whether there's any truth to that (and Sapkowski himself said that there are no gods in this world, only religions). There are some fan theories that elves are actually future humans and the Conjunction of Spheres brought their human ancestors/cousins to the same world they came to earlier.
13.02.2008 @ 17:24 #45
HOW is it not relevant? If Elves viewed humans as something more than beasts, but their good will was repaid with rape and torture, then Elves would hold the moral high ground and be a clear choice to support if you wanted to be "good".
Likewise if humans viewed non-humans as "having a capacity for good" but their attempts to coexist were violently repelled, humans would be the "good side".
The way things are right now, both sides view each other as untermenschen, and commit apparently justified atrocities. Innocent blood is on everyone's hands.
Real-world fascism argument does not apply here. Jews did not attempt to exterminate Germans, or invade German lands and therefore provoked a response in the form of Nazism.
Likewise if humans viewed non-humans as "having a capacity for good" but their attempts to coexist were violently repelled, humans would be the "good side".
The way things are right now, both sides view each other as untermenschen, and commit apparently justified atrocities. Innocent blood is on everyone's hands.
Real-world fascism argument does not apply here. Jews did not attempt to exterminate Germans, or invade German lands and therefore provoked a response in the form of Nazism.
That is not dead, which can eternal lie -
And in strange eons, even Death may die.
And in strange eons, even Death may die.
13.02.2008 @ 17:26 #46
I only mean that how they view each other is not relevant to whether or not they are related. By the way, before humans came to the Continent, the elves themselves were the invaders in the lands of the dwarves and gnomes.
13.02.2008 @ 17:30 #47
Bottom line is, if it was a choice between "Jews" and "Nazies" it would be easy to choose a side. The way things are (purely from the game standpoint, I haven't read the books), the choice is between "Nazies" and "Nazies". When faced with such lousy choice, the question of support becomes "which of the two is the lesser evil, at least as far as *I* am concerned?"
That is not dead, which can eternal lie -
And in strange eons, even Death may die.
And in strange eons, even Death may die.
13.02.2008 @ 17:48 #48
Well, even if they both hate each other (which is not universal - unlike the Northern Kingdoms, Nilfgaard is much less racist), it's the elves that are on the verge of extinction, not humans.
14.02.2008 @ 12:50 #52
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scoia'tael are fighting for nonhuman rights.
Locking random innocents in crypts together with a pack of ghouls is fighting for rights?
Following that logic Hitler was fighting for Arian rights by gassing jews.
I'm sure you can see a small flaw somewhere...
And how bout Rayla ordering a torture of Toruviel? Both sides made scary mistakes, or ... or maybe just had white birds between black?
Rayla is a freak anyway.
Jacques was a stereotypical megalomaniac.
With Siegfried as the new Grandmaster the order will be alot friendlier in the future. If the squirrels win, yeavin won't stop terrorizing the countryside because he can't believe that humans can keep their peace promises.
14.02.2008 @ 13:34 #53
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And how bout Rayla ordering a torture of Toruviel?
Torture? No Whisper, Rayla has ALL her men RAPE Toruviel ONE by ONE and then they KILL her when finished RAPING her AND torturing her. (Neutral path)
Prejudice is what racism is based on, could care less what others say to try to take that OUT of the picture.
Humans don't keep promises, as was seen in the neutral playthrough so good for the elves.
Also, Siegfried openly talks about MURDERING elven children in the game and ENJOYING IT, you are the only one who can convince him to stop and only fight other fighters. (Neutral)
The entire race is eventually wiped out just staying neutral, humans being the virus they are deserve a good challenge. 'Nuff said.
23.02.2008 @ 05:01 #56
I'm on my 2nd playthrough now.
The first time through I seemed to kind of half-sorta lean toward the Order, mainly because of the choice between Seigfried (Old Ziggy) and Yeavin, I found Ziggy to be more agreeable. I invited Sigfried to the party with dandelion and Shani, and he seemed willing to look outside of his dogma when popular opinion (me and Dandelion) argued against his dogmatic beliefs. Oddly enough, I was never approached about the Swamp Batle- it seemed to happen right after my encounter with the Prof and Mr. Big Stuff and the story played it as me being wounded while that happened- I just got a cutscene.
During the bank robbery, I went in alone and wasn't even aware Seigfried was about until I turned down Yeavin's offer to help him. I didnt like the fact that he was willing to put innocents in harm's way like he did. as soon as I declined, Ziggy showed up hollering 'good choice!' and battle ensued with the elves attacking me. This seemed to solidly place me on 'a side.' This may have been because I hadn't yet done the graveyard scene (in which I let the elves go to save the people- but couldnt resolve the quest at that point because Ziggy automatically went into 'Im getting a medal' script and the option was no longer there.
During the hostage crisis in the village I had intended to help the villagers as best I could, which seemed to me the option they gave when they said 'help the humans or just leave' I decided to 'help the humans' not realizing that they meant the humans attacking- (or that Ziggy himself had ordered it.) This seemed to permanently side me with the Order.
Honestly, I dont like either group, but I tended to favor the order simply because in the situations I was introduced to- the squirrels were always putting innocents at risk. If there had been a scene I ran into where the Order was rounding up noncombatant elves and putting them at risk (which may have been something like that in act 5, but I never found out for sure,) I would have gone against them instead.
The first time through I seemed to kind of half-sorta lean toward the Order, mainly because of the choice between Seigfried (Old Ziggy) and Yeavin, I found Ziggy to be more agreeable. I invited Sigfried to the party with dandelion and Shani, and he seemed willing to look outside of his dogma when popular opinion (me and Dandelion) argued against his dogmatic beliefs. Oddly enough, I was never approached about the Swamp Batle- it seemed to happen right after my encounter with the Prof and Mr. Big Stuff and the story played it as me being wounded while that happened- I just got a cutscene.
During the bank robbery, I went in alone and wasn't even aware Seigfried was about until I turned down Yeavin's offer to help him. I didnt like the fact that he was willing to put innocents in harm's way like he did. as soon as I declined, Ziggy showed up hollering 'good choice!' and battle ensued with the elves attacking me. This seemed to solidly place me on 'a side.' This may have been because I hadn't yet done the graveyard scene (in which I let the elves go to save the people- but couldnt resolve the quest at that point because Ziggy automatically went into 'Im getting a medal' script and the option was no longer there.
During the hostage crisis in the village I had intended to help the villagers as best I could, which seemed to me the option they gave when they said 'help the humans or just leave' I decided to 'help the humans' not realizing that they meant the humans attacking- (or that Ziggy himself had ordered it.) This seemed to permanently side me with the Order.
Honestly, I dont like either group, but I tended to favor the order simply because in the situations I was introduced to- the squirrels were always putting innocents at risk. If there had been a scene I ran into where the Order was rounding up noncombatant elves and putting them at risk (which may have been something like that in act 5, but I never found out for sure,) I would have gone against them instead.
23.02.2008 @ 09:00 #57
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How elves see humans is not relevant. They're pretty obviously related, even if both sides won't admit it. And it's hard to find a human with not a bit of elven blood in his veins (and vice versa). The Nazis also didn't see Jews as anything better than beasts, that doesn't mean they were right.
I think that's actually a perfect analogy... imagine if there were a planet equivalent to a medieval-style Nazi Germany, slowly exterminating its Jews. Granted, the Scoia'tael and the Order are both repugnant when you get right down to it... but the Order does what it does out of a sense of self-inflated 'righteousness'. They're the Aryans, the pure, saving the innocent humans, who are innocent because they were born humans.
On the other side, the Scoia'tael are not even just trying to save their own lives, which is a compelling enough reason in itself--they're trying to save their race. Everything they are. Imagine if you lived on a planet where humans had been hunted almost to extinction. When I think of that, I can imagine being driven to some terrible things. I mean, when you've been watching people kill off your own race--experiencing hatred and the sickest injustices, both large and small, every day for years--how can you pity their innocents when you've spent so long watching your own innocents be tortured, abused, even murdered? When they won't listen to diplomacy, won't listen to begging or pleading or kindness, won't listen to anything you've attempted, what are you going to do? It's THE HUMANS WHO ARE THE TERRORISTS in this instance; they're just a more powerful society. And no, the innocents aren't to blame, and yes, it is wrong to harm them... but it's the humans who created the situation in the first place, not the elves. Listen to Yaevinn; he tried in past years to be patient and achieve peace, living among humans. Being beaten, robbed, terrorized; being hurt and confused like anyone is when they're a victim of racism... I am mystified that anyone could view the Scoia'tael as the aggressors and the Order as just. The Scoia'tael are desperate simply to survive and not be systematically eliminated the moment an excuse comes up to kill another elf. The Order seeks to stroke its own ego and expand its reach of power, and they're blind religious fanatics; a cult led by a madman. Believe me when I say I know all about cults, and the Order fits the bill to a T.
But I think the lesson in it all is that no 'side' is better. It's about who each person individually is, and how you can reach an understanding; the common people would need to be educated, the Order would need reform, and the Scoia'tael would need amnesty and incredible kindness to offset how badly they've been burned and terrorized. I feel like Siegfried and Yaevinn, under the right circumstances, could have been friends. Maybe I just have a passion for diplomacy buried in me somewhere, but I can't hate either character. Rather, I feel like I have a sad understanding of both. Siegfried was brainwashed and traumatized, while Yaevinn was tormented, spat on, and backed into a corner. Neither is entirely to blame, even for their own actions. Both are fixable people, and it's a tragedy any way you look at it.
23.02.2008 @ 17:00 #58
I finally completed my first play through and I remained neutral the entire way through, or tried to anyway. Both sides seemed to be pretty evil to me so I figured I'd just try to stay out of it the best I could. I liked Siegfried most of the time, but I expected he would abandon the Order when they started killing off civilians so when he stayed true to them I killed him. ]:->
27.02.2008 @ 01:54 #59
the elves/dwarves have been backed into a corner- that much is obvious. But it's ridiculous to assume that resorting to terrorist activities and placing innocents in harms' way is the only option left to them. It's not a good enough excuse- which is why a good chunk of elves/dwarves ARENT fighting against humanity.
If you want an analogy from human history- consider Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr. Both of them were generally felt to be of a 'lesser race' and yet both of them achieved amazing things without resorting to violence. And religion was an integral part of their tactics. they and their supporters were, in a sense, fanatics.
This is not to say there are never times when it's acceptable to use violence, obviously- or that the changes will ever be easy, quick or without paying a high price- but if you are fighting someone that is twice your size, you wont win the fight by punching your opponent's elderly grandmother. Yeah, you will hurt your opponent- it might even be the only way you CAN hurt your opponent- but it's not going to win a fight. You're just going to piss off your opponent more and get beat on even harder.
If you want an analogy from human history- consider Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr. Both of them were generally felt to be of a 'lesser race' and yet both of them achieved amazing things without resorting to violence. And religion was an integral part of their tactics. they and their supporters were, in a sense, fanatics.
This is not to say there are never times when it's acceptable to use violence, obviously- or that the changes will ever be easy, quick or without paying a high price- but if you are fighting someone that is twice your size, you wont win the fight by punching your opponent's elderly grandmother. Yeah, you will hurt your opponent- it might even be the only way you CAN hurt your opponent- but it's not going to win a fight. You're just going to piss off your opponent more and get beat on even harder.
27.02.2008 @ 20:45 #60
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If you want an analogy from human history- consider Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr. Both of them were generally felt to be of a 'lesser race' and yet both of them achieved amazing things without resorting to violence.
There is one big difference. Both Gandhi and King led gigantic popular movements that enjoyed also big support outside. In world of 'the Witcher', dwarves and especially elves are dying races. So few of them remained, that humans managed to push them out of everything they had. They only either live in some small isolated pockets or accept status of second-class citizens and live among humans as persecuted minority.
Violence that the non-humans resolved could be compared rather to fight of a mortally wounded animal that was cornered. They bite and scratch in one last desperate attempt to survive, even though their chances are null. To some of them it is even not a fight to survive, but rather a choice of way of dying. The sad thing is that they have lost their reason completely. They turned into the very same evil they fought with. They started to hate humans as race, so they harm even those that are neutral or friendly towards them. Just like they harmed villagers of Murky Waters who did not tell the authorities about their presence and even wanted to give food to them.
In “Blood of the Elves” one character suggests that the uprising is only hastening the final extinction of non-humans. Squirrels consist mostly very young non-humans, who only recently reached their maturity. The more of them dies, the faster their races will die out.
