[KableNikon]

I don't know if it is me or not but to me does the Iorveth path not have a "happy ending" I mean the Roche Path you save Triss you prevent a witch hunt and prevent the outright exiling and destruction and hunting of magi and witchers. Save Anais and Temeria doesn't get split or taken.

I look at Iorveth path and well you save Saskia and so a nation is formed without control of the Lodge. BUT now Witchers and Magi are hunted to the ends of the Earth. Save Triss and the Lodge "wins" so to speak and they get their own puppet country.


I see these situations as mostly lose/lose but to me The split of Temeria doesn't matter so much as the forces are still there to do battle with Nilfgard.

Iorveth to me seems like a true lose/lose. Is that what I get from others?

[Hic Sunt Dracones]

well to me Roche's path has always been more appealing but truth be told I kinda agree Iorveth's path can be a tad bleaker....not that I care overmuch since what matters to me is Triss and the rest of the world can burn in dragon fire or be ruled by nilfgaard or remain as is

one thing for certain, if you like the lodge Iorveth's path allows you to set them up to be major players in TW3 by having an army both human and non human, a country and a puppet dragon....AND all the sorcerers and witchers in the country would try to seek refuge there if you went for Philippa.....let that one mull over in the old noggin for a little

[vivaxardas]

If to talk only about politics, then no, not really. Think about Roche's path when you save Anais and give her to Natalis. It is my preferred pro-Nilfgaardian path. Aedirn is in chaos (Stennis always dies, Saskia always looses), Kaedwen is in chaos (if Henselt is dead), massacre in Loc Muinne and all over the North. Yes, Temeria is not divided, but, as Roche said, a bastard girl as a ruler would result in a civil war. So out of 4 strong states, only Redania is lead by a strong king, and can organize resistance. The other three are as good as conquered already.

But, if you spare Henslet, he'll annex Aedirn. If you save Triss, Council and Conclave are created. Temeria is divided between Radovid and Henselt. All in all, good for the North.

Iorveth path is way less destructive for the region. Henselt always survives, and so Kaedwen will stand against Nilfgaard. If Stennis is alive, Aedirn will have both Stennis and Saskia to lead their troops, squirrels included. If massacre is avoided, and Council and Conclave are created, it is one more force again the invasion. Never mind Philippa still controlling Saskia. In a fight against Nilfgaard it is actually a good thing. Is it worth to save Saskia, and loose all mages as a fighting force? I don't think so.

So, if you are pro-Nilfgaardian, go Roche-Anais, kill Henselt.
If you are pro-North, go Iorveth-Triss or Roche-Triss, spare Henselt.
If you are pro-Lodge, go Iorveth-Triss.
If you like Triss, does not matter the path, just save her.
If you like Iorveth or Saskia, save Saskia.

[AnthonyF1227]

If you make Roche spare Henselt it's not so bad. Also, Anais is out for blood against those who killed her father and will stop at nothing to destroy Nilfgaard if she knows who was behind the assassinations. The epilogue seemed to show that Temeria embraced her, I don't think that there will be a civil war. She has two top military advisers supporting her (both Natalis and Roche) and by extension the military itself... that's very important.

Also, if in TW1 you kept Adda alive, then Redania would logically be an ally for Temeria since Adda (Anais' step-sister) is queen.

[vivaxardas]

Anais is how old, seven? Seven year girl out for blood? />/>/> Roche as a military commander is a way to disaster given his track record. Plus, Temerian elite force, Blue Stripes, are no more. The rest are ordinary troops either support Natalis, who is in debt with a dwarven bank controlled by Philippa, or local troops controlled by barons. And barons wouldn't stop fighting for the throne. I wouldn't put much faith in Anais' life expectancy. Giving her to Radovid and uniting Redania and Temeria would be far better both for the girl, and for the North. At least Radovid would protect his future wife. Adda if alive, would probably fall off the stairs when Anais is old enough to marry. />

[AnthonyF1227]

I believe it was said that Anais wants to learn about war and strategy and how to fight rather than doing girly things. She may be young, but she saw her father murdered in front of her eyes. Also, there's nothing to say that the Blue Stripes can't be recreated. Roche is the best there is and I'm sure he can train a new group of men.

[Bloth]

The Lodge loses whatever happens, they'll be hunted by their own to the ends of the earth, and reviled even more by the common man who has always hated, envied and feared them. No doubt we've not heard the last of Philippa, but her plan to stage a coup in Aedirn is dead as dreams. Also she might have an old friend of Geralts, a very concerned father on her tail.

[vivaxardas]

If Geralt goes after Triss on Iorveth path, and spare Saskia, then Philippa still has Upper Aedirn with Saskia on leash. Under the circumstances, it is the best outcome for the Lodge in TW2. I really hope to meet a concerned father in TW3, especially if he is going after Philippa. I would even leave Saskia alive for this.

[Bloth]

Upper Aedirns peasants would disagree I think, as well as the dwarves who know that Saskia's been enchanted, the Scoiatael would certainly contest Philippa's rule as well, and the nobility who backed Saskia will be taking the same line as all of those who she attempted to murder at Loc Muinne. Upper Aedirn as a free state will cease to exist in short order if Philippa try to seek sanctuary there, not only will she have to deal with a rioting populace who will not serve her, scoiatael assassins at every window, her brother and sister sorcerers hunting her, but there's also the holy warriors of the Flaming Rose who see it as a sacred duty to part her head from her neck.

Don't see how she can rule.

Edit: I might be wrong though.

[secondchildren]

KableNikon said:

I don't know if it is me or not but to me does the Iorveth path not have a "happy ending" I mean the Roche Path you save Triss you prevent a witch hunt and prevent the outright exiling and destruction and hunting of magi and witchers. Save Anais and Temeria doesn't get split or taken.

I look at Iorveth path and well you save Saskia and so a nation is formed without control of the Lodge. BUT now Witchers and Magi are hunted to the ends of the Earth. Save Triss and the Lodge "wins" so to speak and they get their own puppet country.


I see these situations as mostly lose/lose but to me The split of Temeria doesn't matter so much as the forces are still there to do battle with Nilfgard.

Iorveth to me seems like a true lose/lose. Is that what I get from others? ›››

Well as someone has said above, it's not that simple.
It is just not that choosing Roche\Iorveth, then saving Triss\Anais makes the difference. It is much more complicated and mostly depends on if Henselt is dead\alive.
If you want you can read KnightOfPhoenix "The Politics of The Witcher 2" threads, stickied in this board. Then you will see all the nuances and implications you may have by choosing one side or another.

What is confirmed in both paths is:
* the destruction of the Lodge (or at least a weakening)
* the separation and chaos in the Northern Kingdoms, cobbling the path to a nilfgaardian invasion
* civil war possibly in Temeria
* Triss is always safe and will travel with you

[vivaxardas]

secondchildren said:

* the separation and chaos in the Northern Kingdoms, cobbling the path to a nilfgaardian invasion ›››

Actually, it is not always the case. Chaos was unleashed by two assassinations, and initially two countries - Aedirn and Temeria - were in turmoil. Plus, as Dandelion mentioned, chaos was in people's minds. If we do not escalate the situation, we can actually completely undo nilfgaardian plot concerning social chaos. On Roche's path, if Henselt is alive, he takes Aedirn legally, with full support of the summit. So Ardirn will have a new king, and combined forces of Aedirn and Kaedwen under Henselt's leadership will be stronger, and a social situation will be more beneficial then a situation before Demovend was killed.

By giving Anais to Radovid we again unite two kingdoms under a single strong leadership. This way we eliminate any political chaos before the invasion.

By starting a massacre, and giving common people an explanation of the regicides, we stop chaos in people's minds as well. Yes, people will burn the mages, but they will be united by a common cause. Life will be understandable for them again. It is not good to find a scapegoat to burn, but it lessens a social pressure.

Emhyr still has his way because it was one of his goals to neutralize the Northen mages, but there is no chaos he hoped for. On a contrary, he'll have to deal with larger and stronger kingdoms.

[secondchildren]

Not likely, chaos will raise whether you choose to spare Henselt or not and giving\not giving Anais to Radovid the same.

Henselt (if alive) will conquer Aedirn, but we don't know whether aedirnians will accept the new king or not, especially the Lormark (if you think on what they did trying to separate Uppern Aedirn to the rest of the country, I doubt they'll accept to be conquered again under one king).
Secondly, for the same reason we don't actually know what will happen to Temeria if Radovid will unite the two kingdoms. Do you think temerian nobles will accept to be ruled by another king, viewing what great chance it has been disclosed after Foltest's death? they may even take advance of Radovid and Henselt been occupied with the war, to make a rising and separate Temeria from Redania again.

Fact is that every consequences we may foresee, it is not certain, especially not those you are speculating. Chaos is in fact real, as all Shilard and Letho were working on since the assassination of Demavend had exactly this purpose. And they succeded pretty well, since no matter if you like\dislike the Lodge, it may have granted a certain support to contrast Nilfgaard invasion. At least in my view. By the words of Philippa, by separating the Lormark, they intended to create a nation controlled by the Lodge, to stand against Nilfgaard. And that was in fact the purpose of commissioning the murder of Demavend. Just they couldn't imagine Letho double crossing.

[FoggyFishburne]

Personally, I went with the Iorveth Saskia route and I loved it. It was a rather happy and hopeful endings and I appreciated that. The goal that I strived for, to establish a state where all races can come and enjoy their new life in cooperation and peace, seemed to be the result I got. Well at least, a step in that direction. Yes overall it was rather gloomy with everything else but that depends on your perspective.

For example, I don't give a flying fuck about Temeria. Let it burn. Don't care. All the non-humans were kicked out of Flotsam by Loredo (I do kinda wish I could've killed that maniac) and were now free to migrate to the Pontar Valley. I am however really depressed about the ensuing Witch Hunt. And when I say depressed I mean like it really bothers me IRL. The aftermath of Loc Muinne showed a snippet of what awaited the magic users. There was a girl with her sister and the guards did horrible things and then you find the girl and ugh... So yeah, I wish I could've prevented that but mm...

This is why the Witcher 2 games kick so much ass What are your intentions and what perspective do you have on the whole situation? Depending on those and factoring in the result of your choices, we should have a pretty solid opinion on whether or not you think the ending is bleak or not. Or rather, is more bleak or less bleak ^^

[vivaxardas]

To secondchildren:

It would be a problem if Radovid and Henselt outright conquered Temeria and Aedirn. But they did not, they took over them legally, and by doing this saved both countries from chaos of civil wars and interregium. Aedirn was given to Henselt, and Temeria was Anais' dowry, so to speak. As I see it, in this case nilfgaardians benefited the North and harmed their own cause. Before Letho's arrival we had 4 kings with problems: Foltest had a civil war with La Valettes. Radovid was not quite trusted or believed in, because of being too young and Philippa's influence, and had to find a way to demonstrate his superiority and strength. Henselt was cursed, lost a war three years back, and his nobles plotted against him. Demavend was a bad king in general.

After we have Radovid dealing with Phillipa the way that shows who is the man of the house, having support of the Flaming Rose, and acquiring Temeria. In essence, a young king punished his enemies and started to create his own empire. It is his great victory.

Henselt is not cursed, he won a war and thus got respect from his troops, took over Aedirn in turmoil (it is always better then an alternative), and also started to create his own Northern empire.

About the massacre and with-hunt: I think Radovid made a choice here. He chose to sacrifice the mages to the populus because it provided a clear explanation of the assassinations, and gave the common people some shows to enjoy. In his eyes it was not such a big loss because the North did not really weaponize magic abilities, and so this loss was tolerable even given the invasion. Was it better then to give the mages an asylum and start forming magical battle units? Hard to say.

At the end of the day, Radovid and Henselt, after such major victories for them and their countries, when they triumphed in Loc Muinne, would fight Emhyr like crazy for what now rightfully belongs to them.

[adridu59]

FoggyFishburne said:

Personally, I went with the Iorveth Saskia route and I loved it. It was a rather happy and hopeful endings and I appreciated that. The goal that I strived for, to establish a state where all races can come and enjoy their new life in cooperation and peace, seemed to be the result I got. Well at least, a step in that direction. Yes overall it was rather gloomy with everything else but that depends on your perspective.

For example, I don't give a flying fuck about Temeria. Let it burn. Don't care. All the non-humans were kicked out of Flotsam by Loredo (I do kinda wish I could've killed that maniac) and were now free to migrate to the Pontar Valley. I am however really depressed about the ensuing Witch Hunt. And when I say depressed I mean like it really bothers me IRL. The aftermath of Loc Muinne showed a snippet of what awaited the magic users. There was a girl with her sister and the guards did horrible things and then you find the girl and ugh... So yeah, I wish I could've prevented that but mm...

This is why the Witcher 2 games kick so much ass /> What are your intentions and what perspective do you have on the whole situation? Depending on those and factoring in the result of your choices, we should have a pretty solid opinion on whether or not you think the ending is bleak or not. Or rather, is more bleak or less bleak ^^ ›››

Loredo isn't representative of Temeria imo... I went for Iorveth-Triss personally through I do not have any special sympathy for the Lodge.

[Hic Sunt Dracones]

Bloth said:

Upper Aedirns peasants would disagree I think, as well as the dwarves who know that Saskia's been enchanted, the Scoiatael would certainly contest Philippa's rule as well, and the nobility who backed Saskia will be taking the same line as all of those who she attempted to murder at Loc Muinne. Upper Aedirn as a free state will cease to exist in short order if Philippa try to seek sanctuary there, not only will she have to deal with a rioting populace who will not serve her, scoiatael assassins at every window, her brother and sister sorcerers hunting her, but there's also the holy warriors of the Flaming Rose who see it as a sacred duty to part her head from her neck.

Don't see how she can rule.

Edit: I might be wrong though. ›››

how do you figure?
depending on your actions at the end of Iorveth's path the mages have
• a state
• an army of both humans and non humans
• capable leaders (militarily)

Then if you go with Triss and spare Saskia that have a dragon AND a fierce leader on the field and if you go with Philippa they lose Saskia BUT where do you think all the hunted mages and witchers will go? Why that new mage friendly state lead by sorceresses sounds good let's go there. Pragmatic as they are and unchecked do you think they will not go crazy and build themselves the best magical army ever including new witcher given the VAST amount of support they would gather? I think they will be fine

[secondchildren]

FoggyFishburne said:

For example, I don't give a flying fuck about Temeria. Let it burn. Don't care. All the non-humans were kicked out of Flotsam by Loredo (I do kinda wish I could've killed that maniac) and were now free to migrate to the Pontar Valley.

Well I recommed to everyone to play at least once Roche's path for 2 reasons:
-kicking Loredo in the arse
-Roche's path is darker and gruesome and full of gore

Quote

I am however really depressed about the ensuing Witch Hunt. And when I say depressed I mean like it really bothers me IRL. The aftermath of Loc Muinne showed a snippet of what awaited the magic users. There was a girl with her sister and the guards did horrible things and then you find the girl and ugh... So yeah, I wish I could've prevented that but mm...

Well yes, those are side effects of war I'm afraid. We can only thank that it's a game, even though shit like that has happened in the past for real and many times (and still happens today, even if with different reasons than superstition).
Just one reason I like The Witcher world is that you have to consider all the grey shades of things. Mages and sorceresses are mostly manipulators. With their role as counselors (some of them) have a strong impact in kings' decisions and politics. After the death of Radovid's father, Philippa and Dijkstra ruled Redania for years, since the prince was too young.
Personally I don't like even one of the mages of W2 and book series as well. Which does not mean that I am justifying the slaughter.

Anyway, I remember that I chose to save Abigail for the same reason as yours, becoz I hate sexist fanatists and hypocrites

Sorry t'was a bit

vivaxardas said:

It would be a problem if Radovid and Henselt outright conquered Temeria and Aedirn. But they did not, they took over them legally, and by doing this saved both countries from chaos of civil wars and interregium.

This depends on what you chose regarding Stennis' fate for example. But it was my understanding that Stennis falls the same in a way or another, because he's weak. Henselt will never owns Aedirn legally, he's not the right heir to the throne.
Normally, in a monarchy, when a sovereign dies with no heris the nobles decide which has the right to get the throne. Unless there's a folk uprising and an establishment of a different state.
Same for Radovid and temeria. I don't understand how he could legally owns the power of it. By keeping Anais? First, remember that she's a young girl so until the day she can get married with Radovid a long time will pass. Second, Anais is a bastard heir of Foltest, there si no reason why temerian nobles should accept her as the rightful queen. In real history this never happened not even once.

Quote

Aedirn was given to Henselt, and Temeria was Anais' dowry, so to speak. As I see it, in this case nilfgaardians benefited the North and harmed their own cause.
Before Letho's arrival we had 4 kings with problems: Foltest had a civil war with La Valettes. Radovid was not quite trusted or believed in, because of being too young and Philippa's influence, and had to find a way to demonstrate his superiority and strength. Henselt was cursed, lost a war three years back, and his nobles plotted against him. Demavend was a bad king in general.

Well than I've played a different game I am afraid.
If you played W1, you'd see that Radovid is in fact young but not uncapable of ruling. He's a smartass and certainly not so easy to Philippa's manipulation. She may have tried to do it, hissing at his ears and possibly advising with many things. But Radovid ain't that stupid in my view.
You can have all the opinion you want about Philippa, but you can't deny she's intelligent and good politician. She falls because she was too ambitious, Radovid finally noticed her double crossing and got mad. Perhaps Radovid has now eliminated a viper in his bosom, but he has to face much more challanging problems like: dealing with temerian nobles and Anais.

Quote

After we have Radovid dealing with Phillipa the way that shows who is the man of the house, having support of the Flaming Rose, and acquiring Temeria. In essence, a young king punished his enemies and started to create his own empire. It is his great victory.

Yes Radovid do not rules the Northern Kingdoms, and Redania is just one country.

You're viewing things too selectively. Implications of your choices in W2 are still unpredictable. It is not that giving Anais to Radovid you will now save the fate of Temeria, this has never been in The Witcher world. Every choice has consequences which you don't know how much they're exactly good or bad. They're just consequences. So yes, no matter what you choose in W2, the war will be and the Northern Kingdoms are now divided and weak, at Nilfgaard's mercy. Unless they find a reason to recompose their strenght, Nilfgaard forces will blow them away.

Quote

At the end of the day, Radovid and Henselt, after such major victories for them and their countries, when they triumphed in Loc Muinne, would fight Emhyr like crazy for what now rightfully belongs to them.

So you really think that now Radovid and Henselt may rule undisturbed? And that Nilfgaard has signed its end?

[vivaxardas]

No, of course, not. I simply believe that given this choice the North is not in such a chaos as people believe to be. I get support of this view from CDPR - you can see their take on these events from the cut-scenes and flashbacks - Radovid the Stern ruling Temeria, with no sign of a civil war or unrest, and Henselt acquiring Aedirn - a cruel king that made his nation better off and stronger then ever. There is no chaos at all in this picture. Obviously, the invasion is still happening, and things will change dramatically. But with Radovid and Henselt in full power Emhyr will have to invade a stronger North, not a weaker one.

Radovid was not weak, I agree. But he himself felt he had an unfinished business with Philippa. His nobles may have felt the same till he dealt with it. Blinding her was like a final rite of passage for him, in order to acquire a complete dominance. To acquire Temeria at the same time, and to cement his alliance with the Flaming Rose by burning the mages, and thus giving peace of mind to common folks, was a great political victory for him.

[Bloth]

Hic Sunt Dracones said:

how do you figure?
depending on your actions at the end of Iorveth's path the mages have
• a state
• an army of both humans and non humans
• capable leaders (militarily)

Then if you go with Triss and spare Saskia that have a dragon AND a fierce leader on the field and if you go with Philippa they lose Saskia BUT where do you think all the hunted mages and witchers will go? Why that new mage friendly state lead by sorceresses sounds good let's go there. Pragmatic as they are and unchecked do you think they will not go crazy and build themselves the best magical army ever including new witcher given the VAST amount of support they would gather? I think they will be fine ›››

Sorry but they don't have an army of humans and non humans, the native dwarves of Vergen know that their queen has been ensorcelled, the peasantry will also know and allready hate and fear sorceresses, the scoiatael have been used just like in the war with Nilfgaard, and the nobility have only survived being annihilated by Geralts actions. All of these groups will be seeking vengeance against the Lodge, not to mention the crusaders of the Flaming Rose, and the other sorcerers and sorceresses of the north who wish to clear their own name by bringing in the kingslayers.

Their is no state without people to rule over, and they do not have an army to lead, the Lodge has been utterly decimated by Letho, and will most probably be in hiding, maybe in Dol Blathanna. Philippa is not a spent force i'll warrant you, but the free Pontar state is utterly ruined if Saskia is not freed, logistically and logically it just cannot endure. The army will not fight for Philippa and her enslaved Dragon, the workers will not work for them, the crusaders and scoiatael will be hunting them, and the magicians of the north will be seeking to undo the spells that bind Saesenthesis.

Philippa is not so foolish as to return to Vergen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

vivaxardas said:

It would be a problem if Radovid and Henselt outright conquered Temeria and Aedirn. But they did not, they took over them legally, and by doing this saved both countries from chaos of civil wars and interregium. ›››

Did you miss the part where Loc Muinne devolves into chaos, and Kaedweni and Temerians start killing each other, before Radovid sent the Order to massacre Temerians as well?

Regardless of these annexations being legal, people are not going to be that enthusiastic about them. That and the Nilfgaardian invasion happened at the same time, so Radovid and Henselt will not nearly have enough time to secure a foothold in Temeria and Aedirn, as evidence by the fact that in TW3, the Nilfgaardians overtook most these countries and what's left of them are now "no man's land."

Whatever advantages Radovid and Henselt got from the summit are going to come into play during the final stages of the war should the Northerners be able to push back the empire. But for these initial stages of the conflict, the result of the Summit is not going to be decisive faced to the Empire's surprise and swift assault.

On all accounts, Emhyr's plan worked whatever we do. It's either the council is established, but the western or eastern fronts are compromised in the case of a long term war, or vice versa.