[Thothistox]

The issue of difficulty is a tough design decision when making an open world game. Make the enemies level with the player and it can make levelling feel pointless. Doing this can also deprive the player of the satisfaction of finally beating a difficult and forbidden area. On the other hand, if the enemies stay the same you'll eventually end up overpowering the player and making the game feel too easy. How do you think CDPR should handle this problem?

[dragonbird]

You're aware that CDPR have already said there'll be no enemy levelling/scaling?

This post has been edited by dragonbird: 14.03.2013 @ 02:30
Reason for edit: Removing confusion

[Agent Blue]

Thothistox said:

The issue of difficulty is a tough design decision when making an open world game. Make the enemies level with the player and it can make levelling feel pointless. Doing this can also deprive the player of the satisfaction of finally beating a difficult and forbidden area. On the other hand, if the enemies stay the same you'll eventually end up overpowering the player and making the game feel too easy. How do you think CDPR should handle this problem? ›››

No enemy levelling.

Carefully handpicked enemies of varying skill.

Only if you abide the urge to forsake the story and revisit old locales will you face up the newly spawned incarnation of beaten enemies. There will be no one to blame but yourself, I'm afraid.

[Thothistox]

dragonbird said:

You're aware that CDPR have already said there'll be no levelling? ›››

I didn't know that. Oh well, it can't hurt to hear what people think about it.

[FoggyFishburne]

dragonbird said:

You're aware that CDPR have already said there'll be no levelling? ›››

And bam. Everything that needs to be said, was said in one single sentence.

OP. Feel free to do some research before making threads in the future. The search bar is your friend.

[Agent Blue]

FoggyFishburne said:

And bam. Everything that needs to be said, was said in one single sentence.

OP. Feel free to do some research before making threads in the future. The search bar is your friend. ›››

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, errr,

TW2 Gerald's face syndrome, anyone?

[slimgrin]

CDPR said no enemy scaling, but that the reverse difficulty curb would be done away with, hinting that there will indeed be a succession of harder enemies as we explore and progress through the game. So this is a valid poll imo.

[dragonbird]

FoggyFishburne said:

And bam. Everything that needs to be said, was said in one single sentence.

OP. Feel free to do some research before making threads in the future. The search bar is your friend. ›››

Actually, the search bar is pretty useless.

[jakeT]

i think the difficulty should be like the witcher 2 because i really like it, and ,as the story goes on, new enemies should be introduced. The enemy levelling is not a good option for this game
Sorry for my english.

[cmdr_silverbolt]

I am confused, is this leveling different than the one they mentioned that goes up to level 60?

[Thothistox]

cmdr_flashheart said:

I am confused, is this leveling different than the one they mentioned that goes up to level 60? ›››

I'm talking about the levelling of enemies. In many RPGs, such as TES or Dragon Age, the enemies gain levels and get stronger (or gain skills) just as the player does.

Obviously, they'll still have levelling for Geralt in TW3.

[cmdr_silverbolt]

OP- I knew you were referring to enemy leveling, but I got the impression that there wouldn't be any leveling at all. Sorry for the mix up.

Thanks for clarifying dragonbird.

[.Volsung.]

The best way to approach this is: DO NOT CENTER THE GAME AROUND COMBAT!

Experience points, talents, skills, etc. should be a transparent result of natural character progression. As you experience events and learn things, you become a different person and develop certain aspects of your intellect and body. This doesn't mean that Geralt, or any RPG character, has to become an unstoppable killing machine by the end of the game.

The world of the Witcher is gritty and cold. Monsters are tough, people are bastards and swords are sharp. Geralt actually has many skills, and he usually relies on his wit, knowledge and sarcasm more than on his sword. Combat could remain difficult for the entire game without even having to "level up" monsters (which they won't) if everything is properly designed. In any case, Geralt is a veteran witcher. Why would he suddenly become a god-like warrior in a matter of weeks or whatever amount of time passes in TW3?

[Chromie92]

Thothistox said:

I'm talking about the levelling of enemies. In many RPGs, such as TES or Dragon Age, the enemies gain levels and get stronger (or gain skills) just as the player does.

Obviously, they'll still have levelling for Geralt in TW3. ›››

I like how Morrowind handled it. You can see high level enemies at a low level but when you start progressing you'd run into new types of people and creatures to kill. I think there was a bit of level scaling used though can't remember. Still it goes to show how much actual work was put into Morrowind.

[cmdr_silverbolt]

.Volsung. said:

The best way to approach this is: DO NOT CENTER THE GAME AROUND COMBAT! ›››

I know what you're saying, but the man is a professional monster slayer. This means there aren't too many types of monsters which you can charm the pants off of (but it would be interesting if there was at least one). Personally, I don't want to have peaceful or sneakier ways to resolve conflicts with monsters; how does that ensure long-term security?

I don't think reaching level 60 is going to make him god-like or whatever. But even if it does, so what? You'll be done with the game by that point and would have moved on.

[dragonbird]

As they've also said that you won't generally get XP just for monster-slaying, which means that it'll be similar to TW2 - you kill, if you want to, for money and loot, but not for XP. The XP will come from quests (which, of course, may still include monster-killing quests).

[wojto16]

dragonbird@

Actually, in one of the latest polish interviews, they clarified this bit. You get experience for beating your enemies, but more you slay enemies of one kind, then less and less XP you get.

[Maerd]

.Volsung. said:

The best way to approach this is: DO NOT CENTER THE GAME AROUND COMBAT!
›››

+1000

The combat shouldn't be there for the same of combat as in most of the games. Giving 0 XP for killing enemies guarantees that Geralt won't be killing anybody for no reason (aka killing for XP). Now, if you know that for killing you have nothing to gain but everything to loose, it makes a gameplay drastically different. You'll start to take a path of lesser resistance vs. kill'em all tactics to collect more XP. You actually will have a reason not to chase fleeing enemy or spare their lives. Long time ago I played a mod for NWN, which was called "Witch's wake" or something. It gave no XP for killing anything... it was so good (actually better than the whole NWN game altogether)! You actually were encouraged to avoid monsters altogether instead of killing them because it made no sense. Unfortunately, the guy was immediately hired by Bioware after the spike of mod popularity and game management didn't adopt his awesome approach to the story and buried his talent somewhere in the abyss of mediocrity.

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Who cares if killing monsters doesn't give XP or give less XP or whatever. If anyone wants to kill monsters to hear the cries of their women and young, they can still do that. Your violent tendencies are all that matter, not any reward you get for exercising them.

[Kudos]

Chromie92 said:

I like how Morrowind handled it. You can see high level enemies at a low level but when you start progressing you'd run into new types of people and creatures to kill. I think there was a bit of level scaling used though can't remember. Still it goes to show how much actual work was put into Morrowind. ›››

There was NO level scaling, as you progressed through the main quest you had to enter new areas where there would be stronger monsters, so you had to improve your character, which required XP from killing but also doing quests to gain faction rep to buy improved spells etc.

You could enter any area at any time, though there was a certain amount of channeling your natural path via the geography having impassable areas (though levitation / high acrobatics totally negated this). Once you reached about level 20 you began to overpower all enemies.

I agree this was one of the best systems, taken in totality (i.e. it requires more than simply the monster leveling issue).

Actually I think Fallout New Vegas did it best, which was basically Morrowind plus a little level scaling. Most monsters scaled along with you, but some areas contained monsters with a minimum level, such as the deathclaw valley, this combined with impassable terrain (and no godlike transportation abilities), also enabled them to channel the player through an Open World in the way the developers desired for the story.

This works, and is a more than acceptable strategy to me. Still, I would like to see something else, something new, Volsung has the kernel of something, and perhaps the "focus" system will prove to be along these lines.