[GladiatorUA]

I finished reading the saga and now I understand how sloppy the plot of the first Witcher game was.
Some of the names and plot parts were ripped off from books. Not referenced, expanded or continued but just ripped off.

The biggest problem is Alvin. The source. With not just innate magic powers but with full true elder blood package. Which is ridiculous, because Ciri was VERY special. Including engineered breeding of her ancestors by sorcerers, from what I remember and if I remember it correctly. This might be a spoiler. So throwing in another child-source. Really? Is he Ciri's son? Is he some kind of clone?

If there is no explanation, big chunk of the first witcher game becomes completely non-canon even in expanded universe.

[Bloth]

Games are non canon, that comes from Mr Sapkowski himself. Not a bad thing in my mind, gives the writers and developers more room to play out their own desires and themes. However the blood of Lara Dorren flows through quite a few veins, and even the Cintran royal family has a rather murky ancestry, so who knows what side of the sheets Alvin originates from.

A lot of folk liked the game exactly for the reverence and qoutes from the novels and short stories that littered the game, but i'd maintain that it stands on its own two feet as a game, and that its central themes of "what is a monster" is almost as strong as Sapkowski's writings.

[Kallelinski]

GladiatorUA said:

[...], because Ciri was VERY special. Including engineered breeding of her ancestors by sorcerers, from what I remember and if I remember it correctly.

›››

That's correct.


Ciri's

son is suppose to conquer half of the world and his son the whole world, so i doubt Alvin is related to her in any way.

They just took story elements from the books and put them into TW1, if you think about the whole Alvin story, it is indeed kinda silly compared to the books.

Alvin seems to be a freak of nature without any (detailed) explanation, but as we know from the books such a powerful source isn't just a freak of nature.


You can spoiler with [*spoiler] [*/spoiler]

[arkblazer]

he is very likely to be Ciri and galahad's son. if you remember at the end of the saga Ciri met galahad (or whatever the name was of that knight from arthur) and when she saw his face she was stricken by how handsome he was and became friendlier with him, hinting that they were gonna have a thing.

also is interesting to notice that alvin considered himself a knight like galahad and wanted to be a knight-witcher and how ruthless he became at the end. which hints at galahad being his father and who his grandfather is respectively.


As for your criticism, the most i agree is for alvin being so powerful. since the lore in the book says that on males the elder gene is dormant.

[Kallelinski]

arkblazer said:

he is very likely to be Ciri and galahad's son. ›››

According to the books it is absolutely impossible, i'm not really into the whole genetic thing, but you need two matching humans with matching genetics/bloodline and so on to create such a source. Galahad

is not even from the same universe like her, so how should that work? It took over centuries, some coincidences and also incest to create Ciri.

If you ignore the books and the whole background of the bloodline, yeah, that's most likely his origin.

[arkblazer]

according to the books is also impossible for a male to have those powers but he still exist.

i think is more a mistake from the designers than an actual plot device.

[Kallelinski]

It was so complex and confusing, i even made a diagram to understand that whole family and genetic thing, of course in german.

[Kallelinski]

wops.

[arkblazer]

one thing a forgot at to the whole itlinne prophecy and he not conquering half the world... welp no one said he had to be ciri's only son.

[GladiatorUA]

Blothulfur said:

Games are non canon, that comes from Mr Sapkowski himself.

Alvin(and a lot of out of place names like de Wett and Leuvardern) might be the reason he said that.

Kallelinski said:

According to the books it is absolutely impossible, i'm not really into the whole genetic thing, but you need two matching humans with matching genetics/bloodline and so on to create such a source. Galahad

is not even from the same universe like her, so how should that work? It took over centuries, some coincidences and also incest to create Ciri.

If you ignore the books and the whole background of the bloodline, yeah, that's most likely his origin. ›››

But according to the book her child would rule all the kingdoms and grandchild - the whole world. Doesn't specify male or female. And Emhyr wanted a son... But he wasn't exactly unrelated so...

arkblazer said:

according to the books is also impossible for a male to have those powers but he still exist. i think is more a mistake from the designers than an actual plot device. ›››

Maybe she was so special that she could give birth to fully active source. Because again, Emhyr wanted a son, elves tried to impregnate her and I don't think they were exactly compatible. We don't know whose "material" Vilgefortz used. I don't think Emhyr would give up some of his willingly.

The more I think about it, more interesting it becomes. So Geralt's re-appearance, Alvin and Wild Hunt's involvement... And if you read the books you know what the Wild Hunt is. And what some of its aims are.

Oh, an how did the Elder Blood first appear? Is Ciri part-unicorn?

[Kallelinski]

GladiatorUA said:

Alvin(and a lot of out of place names like de Wett and Leuvardern) might be the reason he said that.

But according to the book her child would rule all the kingdoms and grandchild - the whole world. Doesn't specify male or female. And Emhyr wanted a son... But he wasn't exactly unrelated so...

Well, Alvin didn't get far

GladiatorUA said:

Maybe she was so special that she could give birth to fully active source. Because again, Emhyr wanted a son, elves tried to impregnate her and I don't think they were exactly compatible. We don't know whose "material" Vilgefortz used. I don't think Emhyr would give up some of his willingly.

The more I think about it, more interesting it becomes. So Geralt's re-appearance, Alvin and Wild Hunt's involvement... And if you read the books you know what the Wild Hunt is. And what some of its aims are.

Oh, an how did the Elder Blood first appear? Is Ciri part-unicorn? ›››

Woah, unicorn? No. Lara Dorren is her ancestor (great great ... great grandmother) and she was an Aen Saevherne, and she was apparently the last one with the Elder Blood, Ciri just inherit her genes.

We don't really know much how the Elder Blood appeared, the ancient elves, which arrived before the humans, just had it and they are/were not really eager to explain anything about their history and origin at all or the knowledge was just lost over time.

If they really make TW3 story not just about the Wild Hunt, but also Ciri, they have to explain a shit load of things for those, who didn't read the books.

[arkblazer]

GladiatorUA said:

But according to the book her child would rule all the kingdoms and grandchild - the whole world. Doesn't specify male or female. And Emhyr wanted a son... But he wasn't exactly unrelated so...

dont remember completely but i think they said son. atleast in the spanish translation i think they used the male connotation.

Quote

Maybe she was so special that she could give birth to fully active source. Because again, Emhyr wanted a son, elves tried to impregnate her and I don't think they were exactly compatible. We don't know whose "material" Vilgefortz used. I don't think Emhyr would give up some of his willingly.

Possibly, however the elves are compatible since when they refer to elder blood they are talking about elves. think vilgerfurtz was gonna use ciri's placenta. then again that is interesting because maybe its enough for someone to be ciri's son to have her power.

Quote

Oh, an how did the Elder Blood first appear? Is Ciri part-unicorn?

elven eugenic experiments. who knows, maybe they did put some unicorn genes somewhere.

[GladiatorUA]

Kallelinski said:

Woah, unicorn? No. Lara Dorren is her ancestor (great great ... great grandmother) and she was an Aen Saevherne, and she was apparently the last one with the Elder Blood, Ciri just inherit her genes.

Yes, but her gene that allowed to move through time and space had to come from somewhere. And the only creatures who could do this were...

And what was Lara's connection to Aen Elle?

[Kallelinski]

GladiatorUA said:

Yes, but her gene that allowed to move through time and space had to come from somewhere. And the only creatures who could do this were...

We just don't know where the ancient elves (=Aen Seidhe) came from, they just arrived with white ships from the western ocean just like the humans several hundreds years later.

Apparently Lara is a descendant of those Aen Seidhe and was the last one with that specific gene, that's it.

GladiatorUA said:

And what was Lara's connection to Aen Elle? ›››

Well, the Aen Elle

are in another universe, those are the ones, who want to conquer the Witcher world and they also command the Wild Hunt. I don't think there is any connection between Lara and them, she just loved a human and didn't want to marry another elf.

[arkblazer]

Well...

the elves split in 2 groups, the elves that were in the witcher dimension and those that were in another dimension.

well lara was an elf in the witcher dimension that had those elder blood genes and was supposed to marry and have a kid with the king of the other elves in that other dimension. to combine their genes and make some sort super elf i think. but she chose a human and now the other elves want her descendant (ciri) to have a kid with their king.

[guipit]

I feel sorry for Alvin because Triss and Geralt completely forgot about him, didn't mourn him or mention him nothing.

GladiatorUA said:

Oh, an how did the Elder Blood first appear? Is Ciri part-unicorn? ›››

This kinda makes a little bit of sense. I mean aren't Ciri's powers the same as a unicorns. They can travel through space,time and other dimensions unicorns can't probably do a bit of magic too.

[Kodaemon]

Some stuff:

- I think Alvin having semi-active elder blood is justifiable. It's always possible there were some undocumented bastard children along the way and his parents got the right combination by complete fluke. Unlikely, but possible.

- ruling the world: Nilfgaardian culture does seem to eventually prevail in the future of the books. Make of that what you will.

- Ithlinne's prophecy: now THAT's a clusterfuck. Throughout a large portion of the books, the White Frost seems to be a threat that's just around the corner, Ciri having visions of Geralt's frozen remains etc. But, the visions of are obviously inaccurate. In Nimue's time, the events of the books are already half-forgotten legend, but it's revealed that while an ice age is indeed coming it won't become a real threat for another THREE THOUSAND YEARS. I'm really, really curious as to how CDPR are going to tackle this, especially since the CD-Action article seems to suggest the illogically wintery weather in Skellige is somehow linked to the prophecy.

[GladiatorUA]

Kallelinski said:

We just don't know where the ancient elves (=Aen Seidhe) came from, they just arrived with white ships from the western ocean just like the humans several hundreds years later.Apparently Lara is a descendant of those Aen Seidhe and was the last one with that specific gene, that's it.Well, the Aen Elle

are in another universe, those are the ones, who want to conquer the Witcher world and they also command the Wild Hunt. I don't think there is any connection between Lara and them, she just loved a human and didn't want to marry another elf.

›››

Judging from the fact that Convergence of Spheres(some kind of multiverse cataclysm) happened roughly at the same time as elves arrived to the continent, both Aen Elle and Aen Seidhe came from the same universe, that as unicorns imply was destroyed. This is speculation obviously.

If I'm not mistaken, unicorn in Aen Elle's world has shown Ciri massive human grave and confirmed when she concluded that Aen Elle slaughtered humans of that world...... Which kind of implies that humans originated from there.

arkblazer said:

Well...

the elves split in 2 groups, the elves that were in the witcher dimension and those that were in another dimension.well lara was an elf in the witcher dimension that had those elder blood genes and was supposed to marry and have a kid with the king of the other elves in that other dimension. to combine their genes and make some sort super elf i think. but she chose a human and now the other elves want her descendant (ciri) to have a kid with their king.

›››

I know that. It's just there is some history between Lara and the leaders of Aen Elle, and the Aen Elle king said some weird stuff. It seams like Lara was actually his daughter. It could've been a mistranslation or a figure of speech but it kinda makes sense because Aen Elle wanted him to impregnate her because he had the required gene. So it's kinda confusing.

Kodaemon said:

Some stuff:- I think Alvin having semi-active elder blood is justifiable. It's always possible there were some undocumented bastard children along the way and his parents got the right combination by complete fluke. Unlikely, but possible.- ruling the world: Nilfgaardian culture does seem to eventually prevail in the future of the books. Make of that what you will.- Ithlinne's prophecy: now THAT's a clusterfuck. Throughout a large portion of the books, the White Frost seems to be a threat that's just around the corner, Ciri having visions of Geralt's frozen remains etc. But, the visions of are obviously inaccurate. In Nimue's time, the events of the books are already half-forgotten legend, but it's revealed that while an ice age is indeed coming it won't become a real threat for another THREE THOUSAND YEARS. I'm really, really curious as to how CDPR are going to tackle this, especially since the CD-Action article seems to suggest the illogically wintery weather in Skellige is somehow linked to the prophecy. ›››

Unless Alvin was Ciri's son, I don't think it is possible. Even if he was, I don't think it is probable, because unless she is even more special, she couldn't pass down both genes(elder blood and the activator).
And I don't think that in Ciri's vision he was frozen. He and his group were traveling through the mountains during the late winter or early spring, so there was a lot of snow. And they missed each other couple of times there when she tried to teleport.
Ithlinne's prophecy is not that complex. White Frost was explained scientifically by Nimue, I think. And some elves were smart, so I think they could've predicted the ice age, especially if it was cyclical.

[Kallelinski]

GladiatorUA said:

Judging from the fact that Convergence of Spheres(some kind of multiverse cataclysm) happened roughly at the same time as elves arrived to the continent, both Aen Elle and Aen Seidhe came from the same universe, that as unicorns imply was destroyed. This is speculation obviously.

If I'm not mistaken, unicorn in Aen Elle's world has shown Ciri massive human grave and confirmed when she concluded that Aen Elle slaughtered humans of that world...... Which kind of implies that humans originated from there.

As arkblazer said, the Aen Elle are a splinter group of the Aen Seidhe, kinda like emigrants just into another universe.

Well, what if the Aen Elle did that, but not the Aen Seidhe?
We just don't know if they (= Aen Seidhe, thus the ancient elves) originally came from that universe or the Aen Elle did that after they emigrate to that universe. Most of the Aen Seidhe were actually quite fond of the humans, especially the female Aen Seidhe, so why should they want to exterminate all humans in the Witcher world? Except for a small group.

What if a small splinter group of anti-humans Aen Seidhe (= thus Aen Elle) emigrate to another universe and exterminate all humans there? And now want to come back and do the same to the Witcher universe, but can't anymore due loss of their special abilities? Therefore they need Ciri, therefore they made the Wild Hunt to hunt humans for slavery and those with special abilities like Ciri or Alvin.


Apparently all remaining Aen Seidhe are living now in the Blue Mountains and they don't want to interact with the rest of the world.

Humans could originated from anywhere, there are more universe than just those two. Dwarves and gnomes were there even before the elves, where did they came from? from the bowels of the earth?

Where did all the monsters came from?

More and more questions, fewer answer.

I really like everything about the Witcher universe except this space/time travel thing, you need to explain this, if you bring this up Mr. Sapkowski >_<

GladiatorUA said:

I know that. It's just there is some history between Lara and the leaders of Aen Elle, and the Aen Elle king said some weird stuff. It seams like Lara was actually his daughter. It could've been a mistranslation or a figure of speech but it kinda makes sense because Aen Elle wanted him to impregnate her because he had the required gene. So it's kinda confusing.

Lara should marry Avallac'h (= Crevan Espane aep Caomhan Macha), not the king, but he was also an Aen Elle. Geralt even met him in that cave.

GladiatorUA said:

Unless Alvin was Ciri's son, I don't think it is possible. Even if he was, I don't think it is probable, because unless she is even more special, she couldn't pass down both genes(elder blood and the activator).
And I don't think that in Ciri's vision he was frozen. He and his group were traveling through the mountains during the late winter or early spring, so there was a lot of snow. And they missed each other couple of times there when she tried to teleport.
Ithlinne's prophecy is not that complex. White Frost was explained scientifically by Nimue, I think. And some elves were smart, so I think they could've predicted the ice age, especially if it was cyclical.

›››

Ciri only saw Geralt's death due a 3 spiked fork, but not frozen to death. It is like you said, she missed him in the snowy mountains.

[Bloth]

I had many of the same questions before I read the books, and after to be honest, here's a useful thread I made about it, the good pertinent stuff's a few pages in:

http://en.thewitcher...elven-nihilism/

My own take, the Aen Seidhe came to the Witchers world through the Ard Gaethe to research and carry out breeding experiments with the aim of making a genetic God, a being with powers greater than even the Unicorns. The Witcher worlds time is beneficial to the Aen Aelle, because centuries of research is a mere few years to them, in their world. In reprisal and sickened at the thought of the Aen Elle and Aen Seidhe commiting genocide on more worlds, the Unicorns closed the Ard Gaethe and stranded the Aen Seidhe, who were probably the pre-eminent sorceror/scientists of the elves.

The Aen Elle could still materialise in the Witchers realm when the wall between worlds was weak, and at other times they would come as spectres, the Dearg Rhudri that we all know and love. Except for Avallac'h who seems not to be bound by any rule. With their enslaving and kidnapping I believe they are still searching for the bloodline of Lara Dorren, and Ciri is of course at the top of their list, thus why they took Yen and released Geralt. They're baiting the waters in the hopes of hooking her, so that they can throw open the wall between world, as happens naturally at the conjunction of the spheres and carry their murderous rampage across many worlds.

The conjunction of the million spheres is a time when worlds seem to align in a mystical fashion and creatures from other dimensions can slip forth into other realities, thus the monsters and humans of the Witchers world.