[gedierond]

Hi everyone.
I finished the game recently (Iorveth´s path), and I loved it!
There is though something I didn´t quite understand. What did Shilard want with Triss at Loc Muinne? He seems quite interested in taking her to the summit, but it´s never explained why (or did I miss it?). You only see she was tortured if you go to rescue her.

Any ideas about it?

[thedawner]

Shilard knew about Triss' involvement with The Lodge(who is directly involved with the assasinations) so he captured and tortured the information out of her. Afterwards, based on what Triss told him, Shilard compiles a list of the members and orders them to be hunted and killed.

The details are a bit sketchy in my mind since I haven't played the game in quite a while but I hope that this is correct.

[Guy N'wah]

Same reason the cops will haul in a gangbanger and give him the third degree: to see if she would spill the beans about the Lodge, so they could use her statements against the mages at the summit and against the Nilfgaardian sorceresses.

Even if she only corroborated what they found out from Yennefer, it would be a public relations coup for the Black Ones and for Shilard personally (thinking of the murderous rivalry between the Emperor's envoys).

[ReptilePZ]

Yep, pretty much what thedawner said. They don't really like wizards in Nilfgaard (similar to the Qunari from Dragon Age lore, but less extreme). Plus, without the sorceresses looking after the political situation, The North would be more vulnerable.

[gedierond]

Guy N said:

Even if she only corroborated what they found out from Yennefer, it would be a public relations coup for the Black Ones and for Shilard personally (thinking of the murderous rivalry between the Emperor's envoys). ›››

This is what made me doubt the "knowing about the Lodge" hypothesis. When you talk with Letho later, he tells you the Emperor already knew about the Lodge and its members, and that probably he found out from Yennefer. So why would Shilard torture Triss for more information on the Lodge? Unless Shilard didn´t actually know about it...
IIRC, Letho mentioned that only himself, the Emperor and Nilfgaard Chief of Intelligence (or something like that) knew about his mission, so maybe Shilard did torture Triss because of that.

[ReptilePZ]

I assume they needed her word as proof to show to the Northern monarchs. It would have been risky to reveal they have Yennefer with them without giving away information about Letho and his group.

[Valus]

gedierond said:

This is what made me doubt the "knowing about the Lodge" hypothesis. When you talk with Letho later, he tells you the Emperor already knew about the Lodge and its members, and that probably he found out from Yennefer. So why would Shilard torture Triss for more information on the Lodge? Unless Shilard didn´t actually know about it...
IIRC, Letho mentioned that only himself, the Emperor and Nilfgaard Chief of Intelligence (or something like that) knew about his mission, so maybe Shilard did torture Triss because of that. ›››

Yeah, I was thinking the above or perhaps Yenn's information could be considered out of date, inaccurate or, at least, worth verifying via a secondary source.

Regarding the original question it would seem to me that the lodge's surface goal of keeping the balance of power would run counter to Nilfgaard's expansionist policy so getting the names of sorcerers in the lodge (chiefly the Niflgaardians loyal to the lodge, not the state) would seem paramount prior to an invasion of the north.

[dragonbird]

ReptilePZ said:

I assume they needed her word as proof to show to the Northern monarchs. It would have been risky to reveal they have Yennefer with them without giving away information about Letho and his group. ›››

I've always thought it was this too.

Everything Shilard and Letho say at the summit is either false, or things they already knew. Capturing Triss waas never part of the plan, Shilard simply got lucky when she fell into his hands, but he made use of that opportunity to say that she was the source of his information in order to implicate her, and to protect his real source.

He just tortured her so that he could CLAIM he tortured her for information, and possibly to find out how much of the truth she, and therefore possibly Geralt, knew.

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Triss was not required to divulge the names of Lodge members- the Nilfgaardian agents already acquired that information from Yennerfer via some sort of mind-reading. That's why they killed Assire before ever interrogating Triss.

Shilard needed Triss for two reasons: to have her act as an unbiased corroborator of the guilt of the Northern sorceresses partied with the Lodge, and also to ask her questions about Geralt. The latter reason is speculation on my part, but the Nilfgaardians may be interested in knowing what Geralt experienced as a rider of the Wild Hunt, and also how he escaped it.

Why did Triss not mention this to Geralt in the dungeon? Since she wanted to go to the Summit ASAP, she decided to wait to mention this.

[guipit]

have some other questions.

What's so bad about Nilfgaard?

Is it some fascist country or what? and how is the Northern Kingdoms any better? Why is Nilfgaard/Emyhr so hell bent on taking the North?

[gedierond]

guipit said:

have some other questions.

What's so bad about Nilfgaard?

Is it some fascist country or what? and how is the Northern Kingdoms any better? Why is Nilfgaard/Emyhr so hell bent on taking the North? ›››

Not having read the books, I´m not really into the story. But my take on this is that Nilfgaard is simply a highly expansionist empire, and sees the divided Northern Kingdoms ripe for the taking.
But surely someone who did read the books can shed some more light about this issue.

[cmdr_silverbolt]

guipit said:

have some other questions.

What's so bad about Nilfgaard?
›››

Exactly! There's nothing wrong with Nilfgaard. What does it matter to the common serf who his master is as long as he lets him live. The only people to whom Nilfgaard is an enemy are those who have something to lose, be it power, land, women, or life. These power plays are not of any concern to Geralt, but they may become so if someone he cares about is threatened.

[guipit]

Well Iorveth says Emhyr makes the elves sterile in Dol Blathanna and the wiki says they keep slaves.

[cmdr_silverbolt]

I don't think he implied that Emhyr was directly responsible for the elves lack of reproduction. My understanding is that the elves in the Valley are purposely not fighting against the fall of their civilization by not reproducing.

[thedawner]

Quote

Exactly! There's nothing wrong with Nilfgaard. What does it matter to the common serf who his master is as long as he lets him live. The only people to whom Nilfgaard is an enemy are those who have something to lose, be it power, land, women, or life. These power plays are not of any concern to Geralt, but they may become so if someone he cares about is threatened.

Wow, that's really well put.

Besides that, Nilfgaard is known for keeping their mages on a tight leash(where if they were to disobey, nasty shit would happen to them like getting publicly quartered etc.) so their northern counterparts would definitely not want the same thing to happen to them as well should The Black Ones go on a conquering spree.

Where would they be without their strong political influences over the courts? Or any other benefits?

[guipit]

thedawner said:

Wow, that's really well put.

Besides that, Nilfgaard is known for keeping their mages on a tight leash(where if they were to disobey, nasty shit would happen to them like getting publicly quartered etc.) so their northern counterparts would definitely not want the same thing to happen to them as well should The Black Ones go on a conquering spree.

Where would they be without their strong political influences over the courts? Or any other benefits? ›››

but why do people like Dandelion and Zoltan hate them? People say they take away freedoms like debauchery.

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Dandelion and Zoltan have their biases. Dandelion is an idealist, and a proponent of free thought and free people- he dislikes any body of power which causes "oppression". Zoltan is a pragmatic and self-interested dwarf- he dislikes anything which may interfere with his way of life.

You are free, as Geralt, to not be influenced by their biases.

FYI- I've only played the games, and read only The Last Wish, so my knowledge of these characters is limited. Also keep in mind that the game story and its characters are non-canonical.

[ReptilePZ]

guipit said:

but why do people like Dandelion and Zoltan hate them? People say they take away freedoms like debauchery. ›››

So the whole deal with Nilfgaard is rather interesting. A long time ago, dwarves and gnomes ruled the lands, then elves showed up - they weren't too chummy with the other non-humans at first but eventually started getting along. Then came the humans and ran the elder races to the ground, isolating them to ghettos and treating them like second-class citizens, especially the elves.

However, at some point Nilfgaard appeared from the south and the Northern Kingdoms saw the huge empire as a threat - they're afraid Nilfgaard might do the same thing the first humans did to the elves and other races. Furthermore, they are a strong financial force so a lot of merchants fled to Nilfgaard because of better trading conditions. This obviously infuriated the Northern monarchs so they spread propaganda about Nilfgaard and how horrible they are, the people obviously bought it. And Nilfgaard being a brutal war machine didn't help their agenda either. The mages obviously dislike them because Nilfgaard regulates them heavily and treats them like abominations which is also why they support the North.

A lot of the elves, dwarves etc. that have chosen to live with humans don't agree with The Scoia'tael and their actions but since humans are so racist, they see them all as one group which often leads to pogroms. And the Scoia'tael detests non-humans that don't support their cause and even punish them just as harsh as the humans do - so basically, the elves and dwarves that are trying to co-exist with the human race are essentially stuck between a rock and a hard place and they have The Scoia'tael to blame since they're the ones provoking agression.

Now, in the previous wars, Nilfgaard used The Scoia'tael, who saw them as saviours and were determined to drive the humans to the see. So with Nilfgaard aiding the Scoia'tael, you can see why a lot of non-humans hate the empire so much. During the war, when the Scoia'tael lost their usefulness, Nilfgaard stopped supporting them which obviously angered the Squirrels. So now even they're against Nilfgaard because they feel cheated and used.

Witchers are generally neutral so they don't really care about the whole thing. And nobody likes witchers, http://youtu.be/NZcsNE6wCHI?t=7m26s ...

TL;DR

Nilfgaard are dicks to everyone so that's why they're so hated. Witchers, much like honey badgers, don't give a damn.

[ReptilePZ]

cmdr_flashheart said:

I don't think he implied that Emhyr was directly responsible for the elves lack of reproduction. My understanding is that the elves in the Valley are purposely not fighting against the fall of their civilization by not reproducing. ›››

Elves over a certain age can't reproduce and most of the young ones died following Aelirenn into battle.

[cmdr_silverbolt]

ReptilePZ said:

Elves over a certain age can't reproduce and most of the young ones died following Aelirenn into battle. ›››

Thanks for telling me! I have to say something, though: I remember at one point Shilard mentions that the Northern monarchs asked for the massacre of the younger elves. I am inclined to believe he wasn't lying since Geralt was the only non-Black One present in the tent when Shilard said this, and also because Shilard had planned to have Geralt executed and did not imagine him escaping.

My understanding is that the Emperor does not care about race, as much as he cares about maintaining the rule of his Empire. If any elf or dwarf becomes a loyal Nilfgaardian subject, then he may not suffer persecution based on race. While I question how likely it will be for any elf or dwarf to do that, I realize that the need for survival makes people do just about anything.