[KnightofPhoenix]

So having finished my list of top 10 video game protagonists, it is obligatory that I do the same with antagonists. The series will work like its predecessor.

The list so far:

10. Saren Arterius (Mass Effect)
9. Raul Menendez (Black Ops 2)

Spoilers of course.

Let me know what you think, share your list, discuss, criticize!

[Costin Moroianu]

The only thing I'd criticize about the article is your mention of how Sovereign sensed Saren's doubt and thus implanted him. I say this because if you do not pick the correct options of Virmire Saren will implant himself willingly.

[Prince_12]

Saren, huh? Would have never expected a ME character to show up in the list. This can be an interesting read.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Prince_12 said:

Saren, huh? Would have never expected a ME character to show up in the list. This can be an interesting read. ›››

The Illusive Man is in the top 5.

.....

No.

[Prince_12]

Knowing you, I'm certain you could fool people into believing he is a great antagonist.

[~Fandango~]

I always enjoy reading what you have to say KnightofPhoenix and would agree that Saren was a surprisingly sophisticated antagonist by videogame standards. As for feedback, I would certainly make mention of the way Saren was introduced to the player when making the point about ruthlessness and\or tenacity. In any case, a really enjoyable read – thanks as always for sharing your thoughts.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Prince_12 said:

Knowing you, I'm certain you could fool people into believing he is a great antagonist. /> ›››

While I do pride myself on my BSing abilities, even I have limits. For instance I can't do that with the catalyst.


Thanks fandango!

[Chewin3]

So a My Favorite Magnificent Bastard and a Top 10 Antagonist list? Well you sure have your hands full.

Interesting read, as always KoP.

[Costin Moroianu]

KnightofPhoenix said:

The Illusive Man is in the top 5.

.....

No. ›››

I'll kill if you do that.

[grregg]

To be honest Saren struck me as rather brain dead. I think he was well written and acted, but idiots rarely make truly effective antagonists (in my opinion). The only way that I can see him in a more positive light is if we assume that the whole "let's scour the galaxy looking for ancient atrifacts" plot was actually Saren's misdirection aimed at Sovereign. Which interpretation unfortunately casts Sovereign as the gullible idiot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

While I too tend to prefer smart antagonists, I don't believe that stupidity on the part of antagonists is necessarily a bad thing. Indeed one of the highest ranking antagonists on my list is not that competent and is politically stupid.

It is not a problem for me, when that flaw is understandable and explored. It's problematic when it becomes so blatant as a plot device and over-used.

[Costin Moroianu]

The reason Saren was scouring for artifacts was to find the conduit which he could then use to transport his army to the Citadel and stop the Citadel Defense Force from closing the citadel arms which would have stopped Sovereign and the Geth fleet.

[Chewin3]

And not to forget that things like these are subjective, and should be viewed as such to some extent.

[grregg]

The saving grace of Mass Effect (and team Saren/Sovereign) was that the player was kept in the dark as to what exactly the plan is during most of the game. Only after all the pieces fell into place, it was obvious that their plan was... shall we say... optimistic?

Still, Saren's assumption that Reapers would honor their agreement long after he outlived his usefulness was rather naive and not really fitting his character. Reapers strike me as the quintessential "gratitude is a disease of dogs" types. Perhaps we can argue that Saren was so desperate to harm humanity that he was willing to sacrifice himself in the process, but that puts a crimp in his "I'm doing to save the organics" justification.

Unless he was indoctrinated, but that's a bit cheap.

[grregg]

Costin Moroianu said:

The reason Saren was scouring for artifacts was to find the conduit which he could then use to transport his army to the Citadel and stop the Citadel Defense Force from closing the citadel arms which would have stopped Sovereign and the Geth fleet. ›››

Yes, I know. But how can one accept a plan like this, full of impossibilities piled upon other impossibilites, as a viable plan of invasion is beyond me. Either Saren was just trolling Sovereign or Sovereign is the reigning Galaxy idiot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Saren's logic was as follows.

The Reapers are machine. Machines have no hatred or prejudice, they would preserve what they would deem to be useful.
So Saren aimed to make organics prove their worth and usefulness.

The logic is sound, but it's based on a false premise. The Reapers are NOT machines nor do they think like machines.
And while I do not believe he was indoctrinated fully, it's very likely that Sovereign already creeped into his mind and manipulated him into believing that premise.

[KnightofPhoenix]

grregg said:

Yes, I know. But how can one accept a plan like this, full of impossibilities piled upon other impossibilites, as a viable plan of invasion is beyond me. Either Saren was just trolling Sovereign or Sovereign is the reigning Galaxy idiot. ›››

Actually the plan was very sound.
Had Sovereign succeeded, which he very nearly did if it were not for Shepard, the Reapers would have been warped right at the Citadel, which would have knocked the galaxy's political center in one swift stroke.

There is nothing impossible about it, it's pretty smart.

[grregg]

Well, Saren can prove that organics are useful in destroying other organics. Which Reapers probably know, that's why they developed the indoctrination, right? So assuming that he helps them destroy the current batch of advanced civiclizations, what exactly is his usefulness at that point? Zero, right? What can he possible provide to the Reapers?

So they would discard him just as they discarded all the previous generations of organic helpers. What does he have that others didn't have before him?


As far as the plan goes, so imagine Sovereign and Saren sitting together after dicovering that they cannot just flip the switch and control the Citadel. So what can they do?

1. They invade straight up, relying on the element of surprise, the Geth fleet and Saren's infiltration of Citadel as a Spectre, or

2. They decide to use a 50000 year old mass relay on the Citadel. They need to discover where is the other end, which could be anywhere in the galaxy. In order to locate it, they need to find several Prothean beacons which are likely destroyed/lost/etc plus they need an actual Prothean to read them (shame all Protheans were eradicated 50000 years ago). Then they need to find another lost mass relay, and the way to do it is to recover another extinct species with the necessary knowledge.

And after jumping through all these hoops they invade using Geth fleet plus Saren's infiltration via the relay.

How was it that they didn't just laugh, and abandon it on the spot is beyond me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

grregg said:

Well, Saren can prove that organics are useful in destroying other organics. Which Reapers probably know, that's why they developed the indoctrination, right? So assuming that he helps them destroy the current batch of advanced civiclizations, what exactly is his usefulness at that point? Zero, right? What can he possible provide to the Reapers?

Perhaps to extract resources for them. Indoctrination, in his mind, wouldn't be an issue if he proves that organics can willingly help them and be much more efficient at it.

It's a warped logic, there is no doubt about it, that was manipulated by Sovereign. But it's not completely idiotic.
What I will say is that the details of Sovereign's manipulation are not shown. Perhaps Sovereign told him how he can organics can be useful to them if they submit.

EDIT: also I don't think Saren knew that other organics were used by the Reapers.
He most likely did not know of the Collectors.

Quote

1. They invade straight up, relying on the element of surprise, the Geth fleet and Saren's infiltration of Citadel as a Spectre, or

And how do you propose he takes over the citadel controls, and defend it before other Specters or C-Sec stop him?
He needed Geth with him in the Citadel and the COnduit was the best chance to warp an army of Geth right near the presidium.

If Saren fails to open the arms, or keep them closed while Sovereign was inside, the plan would fail.

EDIT: keep in mind that Sovereign had been planning this for a long time.
The plan was enacted only after Sovereign knew that all the pieces were ready, and he knew that Saren would be the best man for the job.

[Costin Moroianu]

Quote

As far as the plan goes, so imagine Sovereign and Saren sitting together after dicovering that they cannot just flip the switch and control the Citadel. So what can they do?

Sovereign tried to activate it even before the humans joined the Galactic Community, then he realized it failed, then he tried using the Rachni to take over the Galaxy and then that failed, then he started to use the Geth.

They had the element of surprise even with the Conduit and even then the Citadel Control would have closed the station if not for Saren.

Also what does the age of the conduit have to do with anything? The relays are millions of years old already and they work fine!

Furthermore they devised this plan based on the information found in the Prothean Beacon on Eden Prime though I suspect Sovereign already knew the Protheans had found a way to build their own relay or Saren and Sovereign decided to see what information the beacon on Eden Prime and with that information they devised a plan to infiltrate the Citadel thanks to the Conduit.

EDIT: It just dawned on me I'm defending Bioware's writing of Saren which very likely turned out to be like this due to a mistake, just like Loghain, since at the start Saren was supposed to just be after an artifact then they created the Reapers.

Anyway Knight is Loghain still in your top 3 or have you moved him? ( And don't shout at me for asking this because you have stated yourself on these forums what your top 3 are ).