[IceEpicX]

Yeah,the only big difference is that let's say...Humans mostly deserve everything he has said and done,he may be racist true,but it's a different kind of racisam,he doesn't hate humans becouse they are different(like some hate blacks),he hates humans becouse most of them are assholes and deserve everything he has done to them.He hates humans becouse they are cruel and treat him and the other elves like shit.I think he has every right to be a racist and do what he does,the only thing that is wrong is that there are innocent kind hearted humans that suffer becouse of men like Ioreveth.Still,I like his path better,becouse Saskias Vergen would be the perfect solution,with time Ioreveth would forgive humans(the ones in Vergen,at least),and humans would forgive Ioreveth,If of course,the Vergan plan works.I don't give 2 fucks about Temeria.I care for Vergen,a country with no racism or discrimination,it's a cause worth fighting for.

EDIT:You do make a good point that the elves are hypocrits and that they did the same things with the dwarves,but if the elves did the same i would fight against the elves,and Saskias solution,which you can only get with Ioreveth's path is perfect,no racisam at all,it sounds like a fairy tale and it's sort of romantic,and like that sort of things.

You also make a fair point with the thing that he is commting crimes,and that they should fight with words like Martin Luther king,but still I approve of his actions,becouse he fights for what he believes in(yes he can't see that there are some good humans,and he is blinded with hatred in a way) and becouse of that pursuit of what he believes in and fighting for it,he found Saskia and Vergen,and I think that is the best possible country(town or whatever it is) in the witcher universe and it can only be achieved if you side with Ioreveth.No racism,no discrimination,a dream,maybe it is just a lie,an mission imposiible,but it's worth fighting for.

[Wichat]

Blothulfur said:

If the elves are so powerful then why did they lose to the humans?
If the humans want to commit genocide, then why don't they? They've had a few centuries and there's nothing stopping them.
No it's a lie, the humans are willing to live and let live. It's the Aen Seidhe who commited genocide on the Vran, who wanted to drive the humans into the sea during the Nilfgaard war, and it's their brethren on the other side of the Ard Gaethe, the Aen Elle, who have killed and enslaved whole worlds.
If I were an elf i'd live like Cedric, respected by all, and not self pitying or whining that i'm a victim, certainly not trying to justify murder because i'm not liked.
I can never understand peoples obsession with trying to make elves so holier than thou and mystical, I prefer them in the witcher, just as flawed and stupid as us, if not more so.

Edit: Many dwarves proved themselves to be exemplary mercenaries during the wars with Nilfgaard, they possess superior technological processes (especially the gnomes) and an extremely defensible homeland in the shape of Mahakam. Furthermore they have access to vast mineral wealth, and are skilled at banking, and money is the sinews of war, as the scholar says. To my mind they present a much more viable threat, and a much more precious prize than the elves. ›››

In the begining Elves don't want fight against the human, they no need any army cause they had not any enemy... til human start to kill them. Even then they choise to stay aside, waiting for humans kill themself... but they were found to have a high rate of reproduction compared to the elves. By then, humans had already destroyed their forests, cities, etc, etc. Genocide by humans is been working, slowly but inexorable. Decreasing fertility of elves is one way, pogroms another one, low life quality, another one too.

Dwarves has their own armies because they fight between clans.

And, btw, if human need a race for economy and comercial reasons and because "they present a much more viable threat, and a much more precious prize than the elves." says nothing good about human non-racism but its selfish interest. No much better than another race...

[Dragon'sDream]

Costin Moroianu said:

As for Saskia's kingdom, no it's not because of Phillipa but because Saskia is too naive as a leader as evidenced by the fact she trusted Phillipa with was in Triss's words a "fairy tale" plan. ›››

Which Philippa? The one that controlled Radovid's father, and up until recently Radovid himself? The one who controlled every sorceresses of note in the region (including Triss), distributed them across all the kingdoms as advisers and therefore controlled the politics of a dozen nations? The same one that brought down the Council of Mages?

Falling prey to a juggernaut of a politician that can rival the likes of Emhyr is hardly a sign of poor leadership skills. If that makes her a poor leader, then what is to be said about Foltest/Henselt who were both manipulated by lesser sorceresses (Triss/Sheala)?

Even if she couldn't be a good leader at the start of TW2, the lessons learned throughout the game have certainly given her a good chance to be one in the future (after all, she was close to Philippa the whole time, including the summit). I think she could make a great leader, but this is a discussion for another time and another thread.

[ZinuX]

Dragon said:

Even if she couldn't be a good leader at the start of TW2, the lessons learned throughout the game have certainly given her a good chance to be one in the future (after all, she was close to Philippa the whole time, including the summit). I think she could make a great leader, but this is a discussion for another time and another thread. ›››

Word, and don't forget that Saskia has some really sensitive knowledge about Philippa.

[WrathAscending]

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You see, Iorveth does this. Which is why I despise him.

Because Iorveth has watched centuries worth of successive generations doing the same thing to the non-human races that the current one is. He can see where that path is leading as clearly as anyone else. His reaction may be extreme, but he is entirely correct in concluding that if there are no humans left they will not be able to threaten the non-humans.

The biggest problem the Elder Races face is the rapid pace at which humanity breeds and expands, with the added complication that the planet appears to be changing to better accomodate humans while becoming more hostile to the Elder Races. When humanity arrived during the Conjunction of the Spheres, there really weren't very many of them and the Elder Races assumed they'd be able to fit in with the way things currently were. Then they looked away for what was, to them, two seconds and the humans had carved out a massive empire and were wiping out all the non-humans they could get their hands on.

Iorveth (along with the other Scoia'tael) has had many human lifetimes to watch the same situation play out again and again. As far as the evidence he's seen goes, the overwhelming majority (if not totality) of humanity either openly supports the policies of genocide, or is at least unwilling to oppose it. It's not a simple binary matter of racism; that's only one factor in why Iorveth is the way he is.

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He's merely trying to stop Letho from using the S'coiatel in Aedirn. His own words confirm this. You will recall that he has no intention in following Letho after Vergen. He went to Loc Muinne to find Phillipa.

Yes, because his priority was Saskia. She comes first, ahead of Iorveth's own interests or killing Letho. But after Saskia has been saved or killed, he re-prioritises and helps Geralt go after Letho again.

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All of that stands in contradiction with his racist thoughts - which is why I find it too sudden and unbelievable. And no, he has shown no remorse for killing humans, not a word he says describes this.

Iorveth is a pragmatist. He does what he thinks he has to do, when he thinks he has to do it. He's also an Elf, with a very different psychological make-up to humans. From his perspective, the humans he killed were responsible for the attempted extermination of his race, and several others; why would he feel remorse for trying to stop them?

But when offered the chance to change, he takes it.

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So you'll condemn the S'coiatel, who in large part created the enmity in the first place?

The Scoia'tael responded to the arrival and subsequent spread of humanity in the world. Humans began the extermination of non-humans as a matter of policy; by the time of the games, what we see in Flotsam, what we saw in Vizima, has been playing out for centuries across the kngdoms of the North and in Nilfgaard.

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Where have I stated this? This is never my point. Read my words more carefully. I will put in bold words and simple statement now, so that you'll notice:

Your very first post says this: "And this racist tirade happens immediately after Iorveth himself condemned the very same women to death (WTF?). "

You may be trying to say something else (I gather English probably not your native language) but I can't speak Bahasa, so I can only go on what's been written. We may be talking past each other on not just this point but several others.

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Did you actually talk to Sile and Letho at the ending? It was clear that the Lodge only wanted to dispose of Demavend, and that Letho and his companions have to plan their assassinations of Foltest away from the Lodge.

Yes. I also spoke to Phillipa and Saskia, both of whom made it quite clear that the Lodge was only making its opening gambits, with a much greater prize in mind. Letho was working for Emhyr, but his goals and those of the Lodge coincided because a confused enemy is one that is easy to exploit.

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If the elves are so powerful then why did they lose to the humans?

Numbers. Humans bred and spread too rapidly for the Elves to effectively respond, with plagues bought to their world by humanity (albeit unintentionally) thinning their ranks even further. And the Conjunction of the Spheres changed the world dramatically; the climate is different, native plants and animals died off, and as Nenneke points out to Geralt even the way the sun shines is different and hostile. Put all together, it adds up pretty quickly.

[Costin Moroianu]

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In the begining Elves don't want fight against the human, they no need any army cause they had not any enemy.

They conquered the Dwarves with flowers then right?

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As far as the evidence he's seen goes, the overwhelming majority (if not totality) of humanity either openly supports the policies of genocide,

You are just throwing genocide around as a buzzword without even understanding the full meaning of the term yourself.

[slimgrin]

Wait a minute, Iorveth is racist !?

http://gifsforum.com...nd/294143_o.gif

[rchristie]

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Because Iorveth has watched centuries worth of successive generations doing the same thing to the non-human races that the current one is.

Again appealing to historical misdeeds. It's still no reason to be racist.

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His reaction may be extreme, but he is entirely correct in concluding that if there are no humans left they will not be able to threaten the non-humans.

I could say the same thing about non-humans. If there were no non-humans left they will not be able to threaten humans. Still no reason for racism.

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Iorveth (along with the other Scoia'tael) has had many human lifetimes to watch the same situation play out again and again. As far as the evidence he's seen goes, the overwhelming majority (if not totality) of humanity either openly supports the policies of genocide, or is at least unwilling to oppose it. It's not a simple binary matter of racism; that's only one factor in why Iorveth is the way he is.

It is simple. Fighting a guerilla war against an apartheid state doesn't automatically make you a racist. You don't have to be a racist to fight for civil rights. Nelson Mandela does this - his guerilla war killed innocents too, but as I have stated, Mandela is not a racist. He is remorseful and admits that his actions has violated human rights.

Mandela also tries real hard to bridge the gap by promoting Springboks to his own race - compare this with Iorveth, who sees all the non-humans who lived in peace with humans as 'more d'hoine than Geralt'. Iorveth, who bullies and threatens non humans like the dwarven community leader.

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The Scoia'tael responded to the arrival and subsequent spread of humanity in the world. Humans began the extermination of non-humans as a matter of policy.

Again, as the other guy has pointed out there is no such thing. Some group of humans may do this, but to attribute this to the whole human race is racial stereotyping. It's *gasp* racist! It's akin to attributing the S'coiatel atrocities to non humans as a whole.

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Your very first post says this: "And this racist tirade happens immediately after Iorveth himself condemned the very same women to death (WTF?). "

You may be trying to say something else (I gather English probably not your native language) but I can't speak Bahasa, so I can only go on what's been written. We may be talking past each other on not just this point but several others.

I would say that your reading comprehension is hampered by your pro-Iorveth bias. I will repeat in a more simple way:

- Iorveth and the S'coiatel decided not to risk their life to save the elven women.
- The humans decided not to risk their life to save the elven women.

Do you see the bigotry? Iorveth himself is doing the same thing that the human has done - i.e. deciding that it's not worth risking his neck to save the elven women. It was not until Geralt jumped off board that he changed his decision. But when the humans does the same thing Iorveth uses it as another reason to hate humanity as a whole - to begin another racist tirade. That is the bigotry I am trying to highlight. A bigotry that can only happen if you're predisposed to hate a particular race.

I would also like to note to readers the apprarent racial supremacy tendencies made by Iorveth defenders. Elves are superior! Humans are inferior! Elves should rule the continent, and so on and so forth.

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I can never understand peoples obsession with trying to make elves so holier than thou and mystical, I prefer them in the witcher, just as flawed and stupid as us, if not more so.

Exactly. They are placing elves on a pedestal in which they can do no wrong. I wonder if they realize when they think of elves as the superior race they are pretty much doing the same thing as the racist humans did.

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They conquered the Dwarves with flowers then right?

I read that in Roche's sarcastic voice.

[BlavikensButcher]

I'm not sure if this was intended to be a joke, but this thread is hilarious.

"You're the noblest black person I know, Gwynbleidd."
"I'm not black."
"Thank you for reminding me. My hatred for the race abated for a moment."

[WrathAscending]

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Again appealing to historical misdeeds. It's still no reason to be racist.

Iorveth is older than Geralt. Going by his comments he's past the stage of life during which Elves are fertile- he's probably 300 or more years old. And in that time he's watched as non-humans were forced from their lands, murdered, and in a number of other ways brutalised by humans. He's been present to see the trend, and he can see what the ultimate result will be.

He hates humanity as a whole because for centuries they've lived down to his expectations. He hates humanity as a whole because the largest part of humanity either wants to eradicate the non-human races entirely or won't lift so much as a finger to prevent it. He's watched, time and time again, as other methods have failed to protect the non-humans from human persecution.

And yet only in the recent part of his life has he struck back.

For Elves, the "historical misdeeds" are things they have seen with their own eyes, things they've experienced directly themselves. And humanity keeps just upping the ante.

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I could say the same thing about non-humans. If there were no non-humans left they will not be able to threaten humans. Still no reason for racism.

Your focus on racism as Iorveth's motivation for his actions and beliefs is incorrect. He has many, many reasons for feeling and acting the way he does; "racism" is only the smallest part of them. He is fighting to protect his people, and as far as humanity as a whole has shown him the only way to do that is to eradicate them completely.

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Iorveth, who bullies and threatens non humans like the dwarven community leader.

In Vergen? Yes, because he was about to make the situation with Stennis much, much worse and risk the death of Saskia and the fall of the Pontar Valley.

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Again, as the other guy has pointed out there is no such thing. Some group of humans may do this, but to attribute this to the whole human race is racial stereotyping.

And for the most part, it is entirely correct. Not merely because being human is enough to make them guilty, but because the overwhelming majority- very nearly the totality- of humanity acts that way or at least supports the system that does.

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That is the bigotry I am trying to highlight. A bigotry that can only happen if you're predisposed to hate a particular race.

Because, say, that particular race (for the most part) takes a delight in repeatedly doing things like burning young women? Seriously. Think for a moment about the conclusions you would reach if you'd watched things like that happening day in, day out for three or more centuries, with the problem being escalated by humanity throughout.

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I would also like to note to readers the apprarent racial supremacy tendencies made by Iorveth defenders. Elves are superior! Humans are inferior! Elves should rule the continent, and so on and so forth.

I've never said that, and the closest anyone has come is pointing out that Elven culture far exceeded that of humanity, which is actually made explicit in the game any way. Be that as it may, the non-human races still deserve the same chance to live unopressed as humans do. Iorveth at least is willing to go to the mat for that, however much he may have previously disliked them. Roche? Not so much.

[Lurtz_Of_Orthanc]

Wow. The depth and range of the discussion here is a testament to the intelligence of CDPR's fandom and The Witcher 2 as a profound, complex work of art. (the contrast with the pathetic monstrosity of the Bioware forums makes me truly chuckle).

Racism or no, my Geralt doesn't sympathize fully with either humans or elves. Loredo claims he cannot walk forward in his liminal witcher state...but Loredo is dead wrong about pretty much everything. So I have no qualms siding with Iorveth or Roche, depending on the approach I'm taking in a given playthrough. Elf or human, my Geralt is going to butcher dozens of both by the time the dust settles

[Random drowner]

Iorveth is a good example on how people can grow bitter, hateful and violent after experiencing the things he and his people has endured. Still he seems much more balanced in the sense of being capable of restraint then one could expect, but that might be due to his speices characteristics. But I can not help to wonder if he was a pretty damn ruthless guy even in his youth. My Geralt have a worrying thought he can not shake that "Iorveth" might not be the only name he has been known under.

[guipit]

Iorveth is racist as fuck yes, but he doesn't really go out of his way to be racist. He doesn't kill humans for the sake of killing humans but for his goal.

Yeah Ceadric had a good idea on how to live but it isn't really making him and his race prosper. Elves can't be leaders or any other high position in the Northern Kingdoms or in Nilfgaard(except Dol Blathanna but lol).

Not sure how the post Conjunction of the Spheres war went but I think They lived in peace for a while until the Elves attacked first knowing that humans were a threat because they populate faster.

Also I remember reading how Elves from the other world conquered the Unicorns or was it the other way around don't remember.

[Costin Moroianu]

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He doesn't kill humans for the sake of killing humans but for his goal.

Actually he did do exactly this, for decades actually. He killed humans for no real goal except to exterminate humans and non-combatants at that.

He changed his goal recently because of Saskia.

[guipit]

Costin Moroianu said:

Actually he did do exactly this, for decades actually. He killed humans for no real goal except to exterminate humans and non-combatants at that.

He changed his goal recently because of Saskia. ›››

Any dialog confirming this? Maybe he had different goals that weren't as good as Saskia's

I mean he led a great army all over the Northern Kingdoms he must have planned to do something with it. If he just wanted to satisfy his bloodlust for killing humans he would just have a small group.

[slimgrin]

guipit said:

Iorveth is racist as fuck yes, but he doesn't really go out of his way to be racist. He doesn't kill humans for the sake of killing humans...
›››

Yes he does.

[guipit]

slimgrin said:

Yes he does. ›››

I think we just assume that he does. We didn't really know his goals before Saskia.

[Costin Moroianu]

guipit said:

Any dialog confirming this? Maybe he had different goals that weren't as good as Saskia's

I mean he led a great army all over the Northern Kingdoms he must have planned to do something with it. If he just wanted to satisfy his bloodlust for killing humans he would just have a small group. ›››

We know Iorveth fought during the Nilfgaardian Wars during which the Scoia'Tael burned entire villages to the ground, and he was a unit commander himself. We also know he has killed a great deal of humans and has been fighting humans for a century, as in before things got a lot worse for the non-humans.

We also know he has killed more humans then Geralt has eaten chickens. Hell Saskia herself calls him a terrorist.

[slimgrin]

I thought the journal confirmed this, but at the very least you have random berry pickers dead outside of Flotsam.

[Wichat]

Aniquilate the humans? ? ? Iorveth is clever than that! He knows that Elves will disapear soon, he knows that humans cannot be exterminated (they reproduced themself as plagues under an elf view), he knows he will die in human hands, soon or late, so he has choice the way of acting which an inhabitant of these time in that moment of history should choice: the most worthy. Maybe is not a good idea in our times but in midle-age is almost forced to do.

And Roche (like the other units' commanders) has also killed children and women and elders indiscriminately, with only a mere suspicion or false information."just to avoid they could help to the Scoia'taels" (and have no problem to kill a human monk under torture) or leading pogroms

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pogrom /ˈpɒɡrəm/ n

• an organized persecution or extermination of an ethnic group, esp of Jews

. And that is acceptable because he is a human? or because he kill under the protection of a real shield? Doesn't be The Blue Stripes created to sow terror among the non-humans if they don't obey human laws (which were created and imposed by Humans without any Elder Race representative)?