[WrathAscending]

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The same Iorveth does not hide his hatred towards humans - now he wanted to make a land where everyone is equal? Have you seen the way the elven S'coiatel talk during the sex scene with Triss? Do you not sense a very bigoted sense of racial supremacy?

The ones you run into at a semi-sacred site which other humans have been violating for some time and which they've just damaged (albeit unintentionally)? Whilst being engaged in a long-running struggle where they have been watching humans brutalise their kin on a daily basis? After being promised their own free realm for fighting on Nilfgaard's side only to be abandoned to twist in the wind because the Emperor never intended to keep his word?

I think a certain level of hostility can be expected under the circumstances.

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Also, your statement that "he knows what he's doing in Flotsam is pointless .. vengeance is a sucker's game" is pure speculation. I've never heard it from his own mouth.

When you talk to him in Act I he explains that he had wanted to retreat and join Saskia for some time and was planning to do so in the very near future. Letho would have killed him and taken over command before he ever had the chance, though, which is a major part of why he sided with Geralt.

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He realizes Foltest doesn't actually persecute humans, he just doesn't fight for non humans rights. And he kills Foltest anyway. This is the same as condemning every American politician before Civil War to death just because they didn't fight for civil rights.

Foltest ruled over a nation that allowed what happened during the Viziman uprising to happen on a smaller scale every day. Adda's regency may have accelerated the pace, but it was escalating even before then. Foltest was pretty awesome in the prelude and I was sad to see him die, but if you want the crown you also get the responsibility that comes along with it, and as overseer of the system that was by intent or incidentally killing off the non-humans, the buck stops with him. Less lethal methods of trying to fix that are preferable, but ultimately whether Iorveth aided Letho or not the Lodge of Sorceresses would have had Foltest killed.

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I would also give more credit to Roche than you He's hot headed maybe, but he doesn't rush - he doesn't kill Loredo directly, he collected evidence and hatched a plan. He does consider his actions and consequences.

His plan was terrible. Geralt could have killed Loredo without exposing Ves to any danger, or they could have simply packed up and left. Instead, Roche was blinded by rage and refused to go anywhere- even after Foltest's killer- until he had his fill of bloodshed.

[WrathAscending]

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If I recall correctly, Foltest actually has to fight the Order. So I am doubtful of 'state approval'.

He ordered the creation of the Blue Stripes (the other nations had analogous units) and the Order operated in Temeria with his consent. He may not have been aware of Jacques' ultimate goal, but the Order was hardly circumspect in concealing their feelings about non-humans.

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Killing the King, maybe - but flattening a village and killing all of the inhabitants?

The Scoia'tael don't have the might to meet the human kingdoms in open battle with any hope of victory. They do have the strength to terrorise humanity into not fighting with them any more. Humanity, in turn, has the strength to wipe them out completely, if slowly. Both are trying to make the other side give up, using largely the same tactics.

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No it's not aimed at doing that, it's aimed at the northern monarch keeping the rabble in their place.

And the side product is still the eradication of non-humans. Whether it is done qickly or by degrees, the end result will be the same.

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Because of a line he might say depending on your actions or because he was playing a game human kids play?

The latter leads to the former. Alvin was raised in a society where casual racism was not just the norm but actively encouraged; this has a serious impact on his motivations. And Alvin will wander around saying "I want to play kill the Elf!" without any prompting on Geralt's part at all.

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Or are you going to tell me every child in that village was planning to commit genocide on the elves?

The games children play are important tools for their psychological development. Given that institutionalised racism was a part of day-to-day life in the Outskirts. Will they grow up planning genocide? Maybe, maybe not, but if that's what they are doing for fun as children and that's the environment they're living in, it becomes more likely.

***The maximum quote limit of the forum software is pretty harsh, my apologies for spamming the thread.***

[WrathAscending]

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His actions with regards to the elves speak more clearly to me then anything else. He was using them as a tool to gain power.

Why not save everyone, knowing what he knows? Why not lead an exodus of all peoples and races to survive the coming ice age? Why not just set things up so that humans thrive when the other races fall?

He deliberately chose genocide.

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What exactly does he says that proves this point? Because I talked with him and I talked with the blue stripes. Never once they mentioned terror tactics ( hell we only know Roche deals with suppressing rebelling human communities from the journal )

The pacification of Mahakam.

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Ves was impersonating a whore, and Loredo doing something does not mean his guards are.

Ves had already been subjected to rape yet Roche thinks it's a good idea to put her into a situation where that is a very real risk. And if you listen to the NPCs and the guards themselves during Indecent Proposal, they make it quite clear just how unpleasant a group they are.

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No it's not. The ideals of the kingdoms are worth fighting for but the kingdom itself will collapse due to ineffective leadership on Saskia's part.

According to who? Phillipa? If she told me the sky was blue during the day I'd pan the camera around to check. Everything Saskia does indicates she indeed has the leadership chops to make a serious go of things if given a chance.

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The opponent in this case was willing to allow the elves to live.

Were they? And how much of a "life" were they allowed to have?

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Sure there was oppression and all that but not on the scale it got to later, no where near it actually.

It was, however, escalating to that point on its own; this was something Emhyr was able to leverage to get the Scoia'tael on his side.

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And even if it were genocide, which it isn't ( check a dictionary on the definition of pogrom and genocide ) then you do not fight it by attempting genocide yourself.

You do if you don't have the military strength to destroy the opposing army. I make no excuses for their actions, but if you cannot hope to defeat your opponent in the field, the only strategic option you have to force them to negotiate is to use other tactics, or to lose and be destroyed.

[Bloth]

Christ allmighty do we need all the qouting, it's bloated and bloody unreadable.

[WrathAscending]

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Saskia's ideals, not Iorveth's. It's like a prank from CDPR. To support such an idea you will have to work with a racist mass murderer.

Shades of gray, and something hardly without precedent in the real world.

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I find your response amusing. "Do unto others what you want them to do to you". Which means if the elves wanted to be treated as if their lives are precious, they should start doing just that for the humans

The ware between the races began with the Conjunction of the Spheres, not the formation of the Scoia'tel or even Nilfgaard. The non-human races have been getting the rough end of the pineapple for quite some time.

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However when the elven women that he himself condemned to death are dead he puts the blames to the humans.

He has nothing to do with the Elven women being condemned. Loredo did it simply because he's a sadist. The blame is entirely on Loredo, not on Iorveth, for that.

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Effectively requiring the humans to risk their lives to save them even though him and his unit wouldn't do the same for human women.

Except that Iorveth leads his unit to do exactly that at Vergen.

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Read about the Aen Elle, elves from other dimensions that killed off and driven the humans from their home dimension.

Completely different group of Elves. Blame should fall upon the guilty, not upon those who kinda look like them.

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Also, if you do the quest with Cynthia in Iorveth's path, you get to learn that the extinction of the Vrans is in part because of an infertility virus created by the elves. Quite the innocent teddy bears, those elves, huh?

Potentially, but here's the thing; we don't know if Dearhenna's correct, especially since he's conducting what amounts to forensic archeology on a race nobody really knows much about. Secondly, we don't know whose idea it was to employ the virus if Dearhenna's theories are correct; whoever did so should rightly be excoriated, but the Elves who did that are likely long gone, and if you blame the sons for the sins of the fathers nobody gets anywhere.

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Christ allmighty do we need all the qouting, it's bloated and bloody unreadable.

Bit hard to respond concisely otherwise.

[Bloth]

Use paragraphs focusing on individual elements, group themes, that way you don't need to repeat yourself on the same subject.

[Costin Moroianu]

Here you are justifying the crimes of the Scoia'Tael based on the suffering they have endured and yet when a human commits a crime against the elves we are supposed to care?

Jacques choose to not give a damn about them and just use them as a tool and then discard them, considering the horrors he saw in Murky Waters because of the Scoia'Tael is it any surprise he became what he did?

The pacification of Mahakham was mentioned by Iorveth and not Roche or Ves or the Blue Stripes as you previously said. As for Ves and her rape, she chose this life to be part of the Blue Stripes knowing she would be used for her feminine qualities.

As for the guards during Malena's quest ( indecent proposal my ass ). They do what exactly that makes them criminals? They rightly suspect an elf of being responsible for the fellow guard's deaths. Sure there's one who brags about screwing the elf beforehand though I fail to see how that indicates he is scum and if you reveals what she said their leader says they will hang her before they decide to give her to Loredo.

Quite frankly nothing special.

As for the lives of the non-humans, by the words of Yarpen Zigrin they were coexisting in relative peace and things were improving slowing but surely until the Scoia'Tael fucked it all up. If you expect any sort of sympathy for those who choose the sword to fight racism then you won't get it simply because it's narrow minded, foolish and ultimately idiotic approach to solving the problem of racism.

I admire Cedric because what he was doing was the correct way, just like what Martin Luther King Jr. did was the correct way: Non-violence is the only solution to racism.

Things were not escalating. It was Emhyr who is responsible along with the Lodge.

As for Saskia's kingdom, no it's not because of Phillipa but because Saskia is too naive as a leader as evidenced by the fact she trusted Phillipa with was in Triss's words a "fairy tale" plan.

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You do if you don't have the military strength to destroy the opposing army.

So what the Taliban are doing in Afghanistan is acceptable? This is what I find a bullshit argument.

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but the Elves who did that are likely long gone, and if you blame the sons for the sins of the fathers nobody gets anywhere.

You are blaming humanity as a whole for the conquest of the elves that happened centuries ago and yet the elves right now are blameless for the genocide of the Vrans? Care to go down the hypocritical route even more?

[Bloth]

I can get behind Saskia and Iorveths aim to create a new kind of state on the ashes of Aedirn, even if it's doomed to fail, I find it to be a heroic and noble endeavour. More so because we are after all operating in lands ruled by feudal monarchy, where divine right and armoured might hold sway. In truth the lives of the vast majority of the northern kingdoms inhabitants are no better off than the average non human, and the rulers use racism to shrug blame and guilt off their own shoulders.

The pointless terrorising of innocents in small towns like Flotsam that will change nothing, is a pointless and cruel endeavour. It doesn't change Foltests mind in Vizima, it doesn't win any public opinion, it just breeds men like Loredo who thrive in such atmospheres and cultivates animosity between the races. Animosity that is not needed when the elves are struggling on the edge of extinction, if humanity was truly interested in commiting genocide like the Aen Elle and Aen Seidhe wish to, they'd have succeeded by now.

Unlike the Aen Elle and Aen Seidhe when they were one before the closing of the Ard Gaethe, humans seem fairly content to live happily alongside elves, dwarves, halflings and gnomes. Indeed you get humans standing up for non humans in both games, whereas the gardens of the Aen Elle speak of a different desire from the "victimised" elves. In fact it's strongly suggested that the Elves were not just responsible for the genocide of all humans on their own world, but had been travelling many worlds enslaving and killing humanity before the closure of the Ard Gaethe. Ciri was told that the Gate had been closed to stop them for this very reason.

Yet we all know a few still managed to slip forth in spectral form, and once every so often come forth in the flesh when the alignment of spheres is correct.

[rchristie]

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Iorveth doesn't ask Geralt to save the Elven women (at least in the English version); as far as he is concerned, staying any longer puts their escape in jeopardy, and to him the lesser of two evils is allowing them to die and getting away so that he can save many other lives later on by helping Saskia create the free Pontar Valley.

That's missing the point entirely. Iorveth blames the humans for not helping the elven women, then he went on a racist tirade because of it, even though he himself condemned the women to die at the first place. He's looking for every reason, real or imagined, to blame and hate humans. Don't deny that.

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Yes. I think that such actions are never excusable no matter who undertakes them or whatever justifications they try to use to console themselves. Humans are humans; we're all the same in that regard.

Would you use that as a reason to exterminate them? Would you use that as a reason to look down upon the whole race like Iorveth did? As in, "Mongols are all cruel and barbaric", or "Germans are all racists and jew haters".

You said such actions are inexcusable, yet you excuse it when Iorveth and S'coiatel does it.

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I'll condemn those who are enacting a genocide, or at least trying to- humans have been a lot more successful on that front than the Elder Races. And since humanity has the greatest power in the world, they also have the moral responsibility to use that power wisely; they have the greater capacity for destruction and a duty to ensure that as few innocents are harmed as possible.

As for enacting genocide, read about Aen Elle. Also, when you get to finish the quest in Chapter 3 with Cynthia, you learned that the Vrans are extinct in part because of the infertility virus created by the elves. The Elder Races hold no higher moral ground in terms of racial persecution.

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The non-humans, in turn, have a responsibility to stop escalating the conflict, but when one side has such vastly disproportionate power the onus is on them to be discerning.

Exactly, which is why I disliked both Iorveth and Loredo - who escalated the conflict.

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Iorveth is in very much a similar situation. He can't cancel out what he's done already, but he can be different- better- going forward. And his strength and abilities can protect thousands of innocents.

You speak like he has already changed his ways. He doesn't. All of the racist tirade that went out of his mouth are there even after he decided to support Saskia, which brings us to my original point - his change is so sudden, enforced and out of place - contradictory.

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The change is massive and swift because of two things. First and foremost, no-one has ever tried what Saskia is doing. Thus, there's no baseline to compare it to.

It's simple. If he has changed, he would've shown remorse of his actions in the past. Like Cedric did. He would've talked differently, used different words, with different intonations. I don't believe he's changed - he seems full of hatred from my point of view.

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Most of the town enthusiastically supports what Loredo is doing. Those who don't have to hide their feelings very carefully- Margot commits suicide rather than fall into Loredo's hands because she knows what he would do to her. And once they make the choice to throw in with Lordeo and his enforcers, to do the same things they are doing, I judge them on that basis. They decided to murder the innocent, or torment them in other ways, and they do not get a pass for that.

But of course, you gave pass to the S'coiatel who are out the doing the same thing. Conveniently forgetting that the enmity happened in large part because of Iorveth's constant raiding and killing of humans outside of the town. Also forgetting the fact that Iorveth hated the non humans who wished to live in peace with humans, even making the dwarven community leader - "a prime target".

As for most of the town enthusiastically supporting Loredo, I challenge you on that claim. When riots occur, those who don't want to get involved lock themselves up or fled. I tend to trust the words of the dwarven leader and Seherim on this. "It wasn't always this way". To condemn the humans in the town for things that part of its population do is akin to condemning all non humans who live in Flotsam for things that the S'coiatel do. It's racial stereotyping.

[Costin Moroianu]

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I can get behind Saskia and Iorveths aim to create a new kind of state on the ashes of Aedirn, even if it's doomed to fail, I find it to be a heroic and noble endeavour. More so because we are after all operating in lands ruled by feudal monarchy, where divine right and armoured might hold sway. In truth the lives of the vast majority of the northern kingdoms inhabitants are no better off than the average non human, and the rulers use racism to shrug blame and guilt off their own shoulders.

I wouldn't give credit to Iorveth for it but rather to Saskia for what she did there, a failure as it will be eventually.

And you are absolutely right about the lives of peasants not being any better then the average non human. I mean look at Lobinden where the guards are unarmored militia while Flotsam is protected by it's walls it's many armored and well armed men.

[WrathAscending]

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Here you are justifying the crimes of the Scoia'Tael based on the suffering they have endured and yet when a human commits a crime against the elves we are supposed to care?

No. The point is that neither side has clean hands, and pretty much everything you can accuse one side of applies just as well to the other.

The difference is that supporting Roche keeps the status quo in place, which may or may not be what he and the Blue Stripes want. Going with Iorveth is an opportunity to create something better.

In terms of reading your posts it seemed as though "the Elves" and "the humans" were being used as shorthand to refer to "the Elves who are trying to wipe out the humans" and "the humans who are trying to wipe out the non-humans" respectively. I simply went with that.

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Jacques choose to not give a damn about them and just use them as a tool and then discard them, considering the horrors he saw in Murky Waters because of the Scoia'Tael is it any surprise he became what he did?

Alvin had already cemented his attitudes towards the non-humans before Murky Waters. Even as early as Act I you can see what his playmates are up to, and interacting with him in Act II and III confirms that, never mind Act IV where he's all keen on playing pretend elf torture.

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Sure there's one who brags about screwing the elf beforehand though I fail to see how that indicates he is scum

He's bragging that he will rape her. Scum in my book whether he means to follow through or not.

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I admire Cedric because what he was doing was the correct way, just like what Martin Luther King Jr. did was the correct way: Non-violence is the only solution to racism.

Martin Luther King did not always take the path of non-violence; quite the contrary, early on. He went that way due to the influence of Bayard Rustin.

Non-violence is the only thing that works in the long term and absolutely should be strived for wherever and whenever possible. Unfortunately to get to the point where diplomacy is used force is often employed beforehand. Wars always end where they started; at a negotiating table.

Saskia was played by an ancient and very powerful sorceress who may well be the only rival Emhyr has in the political game. Hardly a serious mark against her leadership abilities given that the same can be said for every other ruler at the time, up to and including (briefly) Emhyr himself.

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So what the Taliban are doing in Afghanistan is acceptable? This is what I find a bullshit argument.

There is a major difference between "acceptable" and "a use of available force most likely to accomplish their goals." I do not support or advocate terrorism; I am simply pragmatic about evaluating the situation. The Taliban (and, by analogy, the Scoia'tael) do not have the military strength to defeat their opposition. They do have the military strength to make the lives of enough people miserable that their opponents have to question what they're willing to endure to defeat them.

It's vile, but you work with the tools you have.

The humans right now who are oppressing the non-humans are culpable for their actions, but by their very nature the non-humans who are striking back have seen this sort of thing going on for decades if not centuries. At present all either side is doing is trying to get revenge for what the other did the day before, which in turn prompts another round of reprisals. The past is important because it informs that dynamic, but people are culpable only for their own actions.

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You said such actions are inexcusable, yet you excuse it when Iorveth and S'coiatel does it.

I'm guessing there's something of a language barrier here, because I've said the exact opposite to what you think I have up until this point.

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Also, when you get to finish the quest in Chapter 3 with Cynthia, you learned that the Vrans are extinct in part because of the infertility virus created by the elves. They hold no higher ground on this.

The Aen Elle, however bloodthirsty they may be, are not the Aen Sidhe. Nor are they dwarves, gnomes, bobolaks, or the rest.

The ones personally responsible do not. But Iorveth, Mottle, Yaevinn, Toruviel and others had nothing to do with it, so why condemn them?

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It's simple. If he has changed, he would've shown remorse of his actions in the past.

By trying to help stop Letho? By fighting to protect humans? By stating that he wants to see a free nation where all the races can co-exist? Iorveth is, at heart, a warrior. He knows how to fight. It's what he's good at, and he knows that the best he can hope for is fighting in the name of a noble cause.

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As for most of the town enthusiastically supporting Loredo, I challenge you on that claim.

Talk to the NPCs. Read Margot's notes. Watch what happens during the riot. It's not until Loredo decides to burn the Elven women alive that you see any of the townsfolk displaying second thoughts.

And whilst it wasn't always that way, unfortunately for the people of Flotsam and Lobinden, it is now.

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To condemn the town for things that part of its population do is akin to condemning all non humans who live in Flotsam for things that the S'coiatel do. It's racial stereotyping.

I condemn those who are responsible, on either side. No more, no less.

[rchristie]

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The ware between the races began with the Conjunction of the Spheres, not the formation of the Scoia'tel or even Nilfgaard. The non-human races have been getting the rough end of the pineapple for quite some time.

That gives them the right to commit heinous acts? No? Then it is irrelevant. If peace is to be had, then vengeance should be off the table, from humans and elves alike. Cedric understands this, all other elves don't. Granted, not many humans understood this, but those who are guilty of it are responsible - not the entire human race, nor the entire elvish or dwarven race.

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He has nothing to do with the Elven women being condemned. Loredo did it simply because he's a sadist. The blame is entirely on Loredo, not on Iorveth, for that.

Again people miss the point. The post was not to blame Iorveth for the death of the elven women - the paragraph was to point out that Iorveth is a bigot. He condemned those women to death without hesitation - but he then blamed the human citizens for not risking their life to save them. Note that he doesn't blame Loredo, but he uses it as another excuse for his racist tirades against all of humanity. Never mind the fact that he will not do the same for human women, or that risking one's life to save another is not obligatory.

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Except that Iorveth leads his unit to do exactly that at Vergen.

He does it to save Vergen. There's a difference. If Vergen has no elvish and dwarven population, consisting of humans only will he do it? Of course not.

You also conveniently forget the fact that Iorveth regularly raids those who travel too deep into the forest, creating fear and driving wedge in Flotsam at the first place.

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Completely different group of Elves. Blame should fall upon the guilty, not upon those who kinda look like them.

Exactly, which is why not the entire town of Flotsam should be responsible for the pogrom. Also not the entire elvish population should be responsible for what the S'coiatel did. Iorveth, Loredo, the S'coiatel and the guards are responsible.

I was merely pointing out to you that elves are also capable of genocide. They are not a group of saintly people, free of sins.

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but the Elves who did that are likely long gone, and if you blame the sons for the sins of the fathers nobody gets anywhere.

Hah! I got you here. I am not blaming the current elves, merely pointing out that you are mistaken in your view that the Aen Seidhe is incapable of acts of cruelty or even innocent in terms of genocide.

I would like to strongly note that: You blame the sons and daughters of the humans who first settled in the land for the sins of their forefathers committed against the Aen Seidhe. You were the one who first pointed out the wars that humans did when they first settled as an excuse for Iorveth's cruelty. I did no such thing - you did.

Do you realize you bias now?

[rchristie]

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After being promised their own free realm for fighting on Nilfgaard's side only to be abandoned to twist in the wind because the Emperor never intended to keep his word?

I think a certain level of hostility can be expected under the circumstances.

Again, you use persecution as an excuse for another type of persecution. I shall repeat again - just because you're robbed, doesn't give you the right to rob others. All of you claim you do not excuse their actions, but you do so anyway. "Such level of hostility can be expected" - if that's not an excuse I don't know what is.

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the buck stops with him. Less lethal methods of trying to fix that are preferable, but ultimately whether Iorveth aided Letho or not the Lodge of Sorceresses would have had Foltest killed.

The lodge of the sorceress did not condemn Foltest to death. Do not try to assuage Iorveth from his part in assassinating Foltest.

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His plan was terrible. Geralt could have killed Loredo without exposing Ves to any danger, or they could have simply packed up and left. Instead, Roche was blinded by rage and refused to go anywhere- even after Foltest's killer- until he had his fill of bloodshed.

- I think his plan is terrible so that Geralt can have some action in the game. Remember that even Iorveth thinks of him as a worthy foe, that he is the only first commander of the special forces that still survives.
- Loredo is going to betray Flotsam to Kaedwen, he has to die. If Roche doesn't kill Loredo, Flotsam, which is a strategic town in the Pontar River would have fallen to Kaedwen. No - it's not bloodlust. He calculated this.

[rchristie]

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He ordered the creation of the Blue Stripes (the other nations had analogous units) and the Order operated in Temeria with his consent.

Blue Stripes were not created to kill non humans, but to protect the Kingdom from raids and attacks of rebels - whether human or non humans. It just seems to be the case that most rebels are non humans. Recall that the Blue Stripes killed Loredo all the same, because he is a traitor to the Kingdom - even though he's a human. To think of the Blue Stripes as an organization that persecutes non humans shows your bias. While I agree that the Order is somewhat racist - the Blue Stripes are not. Recall that they didn't harm the non humans who doesn't rebel against Temeria.

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Both are trying to make the other side give up, using largely the same tactics.

Of course you conveniently forget that the special forces were created as a response to the S'coiatel.

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Given that institutionalised racism was a part of day-to-day life in the Outskirts. Will they grow up planning genocide? Maybe, maybe not, but if that's what they are doing for fun as children and that's the environment they're living in, it becomes more likely.

Of course, I agree! However going to the woods and started to kill humans like Iorveth did isn't helping. Which is why I despised Iorveth.

[WrathAscending]

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Again people miss the point.

You stated that Iorveth was wholly responsible for them being burned. Iorveth is entirely justified in pointing out that the human population of Flotsam could have saved them, and that they did not need to degenerate into the mob we see in action at the end of Act I. But that is the path the town had been on for a considerable period of time, and Flotsam is representative of townships and cities all across the North where such things are happening every single day.

He is also quite correct in pointing out that if there were enough humans who disagreed with Loredo's way of doing things, they could have risen against him at any point and put an end to it. The whole situation never need have happened.

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He does it to save Vergen. There's a difference. If Vergen has no elvish and dwarven population, consisting of humans only will he do it? Of course not.

If Vergen was 100% human and Saskia asked it of him, he would do so without question. That is quite clearly established in Act I, never mind Act II.

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You also conveniently forget the fact that Iorveth regularly raids those who travel too deep into the forest, creating fear and driving wedge in Flotsam at the first place.

Of course, the people of Flotsam don't need to go far beyond its walls and the forest is positively crawling with Endregas, Nekkers, Wraiths, Drowners, and Drowned Dead that are all every bit as keen to kill humans.

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Exactly, which is why not the entire town of Flotsam should be responsible for the pogrom. Also not the entire elvish population should be responsible for what the S'coiatel did. Iorveth, Loredo, the S'coiatel and the guards are responsible.

Yes, which is precisely what I have already said.

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Hah! I got you here. I am not blaming the current elves, merely pointing out that you are mistaken in your view that the Aen Seidhe is incapable of acts of cruelty or even innocent in terms of genocide.

Considering I never said what you're accusing me of, I sort of doubt it.

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I would like to strongly note that: You blame the sons and daughters of the humans who first settled in the land for the sins of their forefathers committed against the Aen Seidhe. You were the one who first pointed out the wars that humans did when they first settled as an excuse for Iorveth's cruelty. I did no such thing - you did.

That was by way of providing historical context. The Elves and other non-human races have been under seige for centuries, as a direct result of human expansion. Humans made a point of using such tactics even in the beginning, and there are Elves around who can remember it themselves, or who have parents who did.

There was no excuse for Iorveth's actions, merely a reason. He was watching the slow extermination of his people, and decided to do what he could about it. The only reason he's "worse" than Roche in this regard is that he's an Elf and so has had longer to rack up the atrocities.

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The lodge of the sorceress did not condemn Foltest to death. Do not try to assuage Iorveth from his part in assassinating Foltest.

The Lodge wanted all of the monarchs who represented a threat to their plans gone. They dispatched Triss to manipulate Foltest, but she failed comprehensively in that regard; given their response to Demavend and Henselt, I seriously doubt Foltest would have been long for the world regardless of Iorveth's aid.

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Loredo is going to betray Flotsam to Kaedwen, he has to die. If Roche doesn't kill Loredo, Flotsam, which is a strategic town in the Pontar River would have fallen to Kaedwen. No - it's not bloodlust. He calculated this.

And killing Loredo before vanishing up the Pontar will leave the town in such a mess that Henselt's forces will be able to simply stroll in and claim the place. Not that he would have needed to dispatch much force to take Flotsam any way, nor is it probable that Temeria could have defended the town regardless. He had other options, like threatening Loredo or leaving one of his Blue Stripes lieutenants behind to keep order, but instead chooses to weaken the town badly. At best it's a wash for Kaedweni forces; at worst he's handed Flotsam to them on a platter.

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Of course you conveniently forget that the special forces were created as a response to the S'coiatel.

And the Scoia'tael were formed in large part because their kinsmen were being slaughtered in the North. Chicken and the egg.

[rchristie]

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The difference is that supporting Roche keeps the status quo in place, which may or may not be what he and the Blue Stripes want. Going with Iorveth is an opportunity to create something better.

Supporting Saskia does create the opportunity. Bear in mind that we are discussing the character of Iorveth, not the effects of travelling with him instead of Roche in the story.

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Non-violence is the only thing that works in the long term and absolutely should be strived for wherever and whenever possible. Unfortunately to get to the point where diplomacy is used force is often employed beforehand. Wars always end where they started; at a negotiating table.

Of course. I agree. Which is why I mentioned Nelson Mandela and his guerilla war. However, as I said before, Iorveth is a racist - Nelson Mandela isn't. Big difference that.

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The ones personally responsible do not. But Iorveth, Mottle, Yaevinn, Toruviel and others had nothing to do with it, so why condemn them?

I am not condemning Iorveth for Aen Elle's action. I was merely pointing out that elves can be as genocidal as the rest, possibly even worse, since most in the forum seem to start with the assumption that "elves are innocent". Just like one wouldn't blame Aen Elle's actions on Iorveth, so does one must not blame the actions of some humans to the race as a whole. You see, Iorveth does this. Which is why I despise him.

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By trying to help stop Letho?

He's merely trying to stop Letho from using the S'coiatel in Aedirn. His own words confirm this. You will recall that he has no intention in following Letho after Vergen. He went to Loc Muinne to find Phillipa.

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By fighting to protect humans? By stating that he wants to see a free nation where all the races can co-exist? Iorveth is, at heart, a warrior. He knows how to fight. It's what he's good at, and he knows that the best he can hope for is fighting in the name of a noble cause.

All of that stands in contradiction with his racist thoughts - which is why I find it too sudden and unbelievable. And no, he has shown no remorse for killing humans, not a word he says describes this.

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Talk to the NPCs. Read Margot's notes. Watch what happens during the riot. It's not until Loredo decides to burn the Elven women alive that you see any of the townsfolk displaying second thoughts.

And whilst it wasn't always that way, unfortunately for the people of Flotsam and Lobinden, it is now.

Some in the town may be guilty, but to say that all the humans in the town is to be condemned? No, that is racial stereotyping, pure and simple.

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I condemn those who are responsible, on either side. No more, no less.

So you'll condemn the S'coiatel, who in large part created the enmity in the first place? Driving a wedge between humans and non humans who are trying to live side by side? Bullying non humans who wanted to live in peace with humans? Burning entire villages of humans to the ground? No? Thought so.

[Agbeth]

What do I think about Iorveth? Hm...

Iorveth - a regular son of a whore. Best description of Iorveth given by Roche

[rchristie]

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You stated that Iorveth was wholly responsible for them being burned.

Where have I stated this? This is never my point. Read my words more carefully. I will put in bold words and simple statement now, so that you'll notice:

Iorveth is a bigot who will use and create any reason to be a racist. The humans who stand by were not the cause of the elves' death, but he blames them anyway and uses it as a reason for his racist tirade against humans. The whole point of the paragraph is to show people that Iorveth is a racist.

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He is also quite correct in pointing out that if there were enough humans who disagreed with Loredo's way of doing things, they could have risen against him at any point and put an end to it. The whole situation never need have happened.

I could have said the same of the elves. If there were enough elves who wanted peace, S'coiatel would've ended and has no new members. Still no reason for racism.

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The Lodge wanted all of the monarchs who represented a threat to their plans gone.

Did you actually talk to Sile and Letho at the ending? It was clear that the Lodge only wanted to dispose of Demavend, and that Letho and his companions have to plan their assassinations of Foltest away from the Lodge.

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And killing Loredo before vanishing up the Pontar will leave the town in such a mess that Henselt's forces will be able to simply stroll in and claim the place.

Did you actually play Roche's part? At the ending it was noted that Flotsam got a new commandant, now straight from Vizima, a man who loves to fish, and remained firmly Temerian.

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And the Scoia'tael were formed in large part because their kinsmen were being slaughtered in the North. Chicken and the egg.

I have to disagree. As I have mentioned over and over again, the Blue Stripes are not out there to kill non humans, simply those who threaten the stability of the Kingdom, humans and non humans alike - the S'coiatel are created to "fight for freedom" by killing humans. Big difference.

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There was no excuse for Iorveth's actions, merely a reason. He was watching the slow extermination of his people, and decided to do what he could about it. The only reason he's "worse" than Roche in this regard is that he's an Elf and so has had longer to rack up the atrocities.

The reason he's worse than Roche is that he's a racist. Which is my point.

[Wichat]

Dwarves have not any sort of army, gnoms neither so they never seemed a danger for kindman expansion... well, they have nothing that humans want them or to envy of.

But elves...oh! That's another sotry, there ARE superior, they are long- long-lived (human leaders knows that almost immortality is synonymous with absolute power and this is an unforgivable privilege held by beings who not parcel their land or trade with them as humans do. And they could create strongs armies if humans allow them.

In front a people like this any human leader can't allow its existence or that any potential enemy fraternize with them. Solution: exterminate either with pogroms, exiling them up in ghettos or preventing any social status superior to that of an outcast.

A dwarf or a medium with some administrative fee (bankers?) engenders no danger, but an elf, yes.
So no king encourages coexistence between humans and elves, they encourage racism and distrust between races (Folstet included).
If I were elf in a world ... who would? live like a dog crumbs humans in extaradio of the towns, not daring to look into the eyes of another human without fear of being stoned or become a fugitive and maintain my dignity as a free elf though this force me to kill who permits me not?

About humans... nothing to say, everybody knows how we are behind the social mask... If any of us do not act like any of the characters in The Witcher in similar circumstances should be sanctified. Good and bad people exist anywhere, anytime...

[Bloth]

If the elves are so powerful then why did they lose to the humans?
If the humans want to commit genocide, then why don't they? They've had a few centuries and there's nothing stopping them.
No it's a lie, the humans are willing to live and let live. It's the Aen Seidhe who commited genocide on the Vran, who wanted to drive the humans into the sea during the Nilfgaard war, and it's their brethren on the other side of the Ard Gaethe, the Aen Elle, who have killed and enslaved whole worlds.
If I were an elf i'd live like Cedric, respected by all, and not self pitying or whining that i'm a victim, certainly not trying to justify murder because i'm not liked.
I can never understand peoples obsession with trying to make elves so holier than thou and mystical, I prefer them in the witcher, just as flawed and stupid as us, if not more so.

Edit: Many dwarves proved themselves to be exemplary mercenaries during the wars with Nilfgaard, they possess superior technological processes (especially the gnomes) and an extremely defensible homeland in the shape of Mahakam. Furthermore they have access to vast mineral wealth, and are skilled at banking, and money is the sinews of war, as the scholar says. To my mind they present a much more viable threat, and a much more precious prize than the elves.