[rchristie]

I've just finished my second playthrough with Iorveth and I have to say, I'm quite ambivalent about his character. Simply put, Iorveth is a racist. Now for those of you that are unaware because of some naive predisposition (e.g. black people can't be racist!), let's put things into perspective:

• President or beggar what's the difference? One negro less.
  
• Did you see that little black whore? I like his kind best. Killing them is like pulling weeds - strangely relaxing.
  
• Yet race is the very reason we fight. We have white skin, yours are black. We are few yet long lived, your kind multiplies like vermin though thankfully expires quickly.
  
• Sooner or later Arabs will kill off all others, all Jews and Westerners, then they'll start murdering one another. Your kind knows no other ways, it's in your genes. You'll keep killing each other until only one remains - the strongest among you. A thousand years from now a dim witted Arab barbarian will climb to the top of the pile of bones, sit down and proclaim, I win.
  
• I: You're the most noble black person I know Gwynbleid.
  G: I'm not black.
  I: I'm glad you reminded me. My hatred towards the race abated for a moment.

All of the above is said by Iorveth.

• King or beggar what's the difference? One d'hoine less.
  
• Did you see that little dh'oine whore? I like his kind best. Killing them is like pulling weeds - strangely relaxing.
  
• Yet race is the very reason we fight. We have pointed ears, yours are rounded. We are few yet long lived, your kind multiplies like vermin though thankfully expires quickly.
  
• Sooner or later humans will kill off all the Aen Seidhe, all dwarves and gnomes, then they'll start murdering one another. Your kind knows no other ways, it's in your genes. You'll keep killing each other until only one remains - the strongest among you. A thousand years from now a dim witted human barbarian will climb to the top of the pile of bones, sit down and proclaim, I win.
  
• I: You're the most noble human I know Gwynbleid.
  G: I'm not human.
  I: I'm glad you reminded me. My hatred towards the species abated for a moment.

While both Roche and Iorveth has done questionable deeds in the past, Roche is not a racist. He'll kill everybody that threatens his homeland regardless of race.

Roche is a tool. He is as good as the King he serves. Put it this way - when Saskia rules, she will need people like Roche, who unquestioningly follows her simply out of loyalty to the concept of "nation/state" or patriotism. Loyalty is Roche's strongest personality trait, one that I think is commendable.

Iorveth on the other hand.. Well, as I see it the only thing that's good about him is that he has self awareness. But even that requires Geralt to directly confront him.

I also note the hypocritical way Iorveth sees the world.. as if the whole world owes him something - like an emo. When raiding the prison barge with a ruse, he himself mentioned that he made the lives of humans living in Flotsam a living hell. When Loredo burned the elf women, he became bitter and went on in another grandiose racist tirade because the humans will not risk their life to save them. Bear in mind that not everyone has Geralt's strength and agility. Ask youself, will you willingly risk your life to save a stranger? Will you condemn those who stand by, waiting for the firemen as a fire consumes a building? Risking your neck will be heroic, but it is by no means an obligation. The life of those outside of the fire are just as valuable as those who are trapped inside. And this racist tirade happens immediately after Iorveth himself condemned the very same women to death (WTF?). I'm also pretty sure that Iorveth and his S'coiatel will not risk their lives to save human women in the burned building (one d'hoine less, eh?). He acts like a victim even though he is an agressor.

I find it very unconvincing that a racist like him will suddenly fight for 'equality'. When I asked him about his goals, he used grandiose statements like "a place where an elf can go to a human inn and humans can enter the forest without fear" - all the while killing and raiding humans who wandered too deeply in the forest, thus creating the fear in the first place. Never mind the fact that nonhumans can go to the inn in Flotsam. I feel his support for such an ideal to be forced and unnatural, a contradiction.

I haven't read the books, but based on playing TW1, I also cannot believe that Zoltan will ask for Geralt to help the S'coiatel storm the prisoner barge. It seems contradictory to what I know about him. This all seem enforced and out of place. Asked Geralt to help him free the prisoners himself maybe, but to associate himself with S'coiatel - and Iorveth at that?

Many people in the forum see Iorveth as a freedom fighter. I do not think he is. I will be frank. He's not a freedom fighter. He is not Nelson Mandela. He's no Martin Luther King Jr.

Nelson Mandela fought a guerilla war against an apartheid state. His fight also killed innocents. Nelson Mandela, however, is not a racist. You cannot imagine Iorveth happily encouraging the elves to partake in human tradition, like Mandela did with Springboks. Nelson Mandela will recognize an elected white president - can you imagine Iorveth and the S'coiatel bowing his head to a d'hoine King? Iorveth and his racial supremacy tendencies?

If it were not for his support for Saskia - what is redeeming about Iorveth? I'm convinced that were Saskia a d'hoine, not a dragon, he'll look down on her like the rest.

However, I cannot put aside the fact that Iorveth fought alongside Saskia for equality of the races. Whatever the reason - boner for the dragoness or otherwise - he helped created a state that strives for equality before the law. Were it not for Iorveth - if the choice is between Saskia and Roche, then the choice is clear. The fact that I despise Iorveth makes choosing between the two paths all the more dilemmatic.

As much as I disliked Iorveth, I think a more neutral path will be Geralt refusing to be involved in local politics and went with Iorveth to Vergen directly. I am saddened by the fact that I cannot remain neutral in either Kaedwen or Vergen. I am also disappointed that neutral dialogue options with Iorveth are too few. I am, however, immensely satisfied that I can leave the regular son of a whore to die.

Kudos for CDPR for crafting a RPG story that forced me to think on every decision.

[gab961111]

I think he's too much intelligent to be the regular angry racist. Yes he hates humans but not for what they are, but for what they have done to the elves.

[Jobbert]

The thing I dislike the most about Iorveth is the fact that he considers non-humans who try to live in peace with humans as bad as humans themselves, while these nonhumans are actually the ones who contribute to a peaceful situation between the races the most and are, in my opinion, far braver than he is, as they don't give in to their hatred.

I believe that Iorveth doesn't stop hating humans when siding with Saskia all of a sudden, but he knows a compromise when he sees one, and a compromise is the only thing that will save the S'coiatel from certain annihilation.

[WrathAscending]

You are aware that Iorveth (and the overwhelming majority of all of the Scoia'tael) began their fight because humanity waged a war of extermination against all of the Elder Races after their arrival during the Conjunction of the Spheres, yes? They are subjected every day to persecution and pogroms; Geralt died trying to stop one such uprising. Such a response should hardly be surprising.

Iorveth was not a nice person in the past, no. But he changes, as many of the NPCs in Act II point out. Rather than trying to massacre all humans everywhere, he goes to war to try and create a free kingdom where all, regardless of race, will be welcomed and safe.

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Did you see that little dh'oine whore? I like his kind best. Killing them is like pulling weeds - strangely relaxing.

This was in reference to a guard in Flotsam. The self-same guards who incite riots against the non-humans, who rape, murder, and steal from the common people of the township. Frankly, Iorveth was quite restrained compared to what I would have said in his place.

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Sooner or later humans will kill off all the Aen Seidhe, all dwarves and gnomes, then they'll start murdering one another. Your kind knows no other ways, it's in your genes. You'll keep killing each other until only one remains - the strongest among you. A thousand years from now a dim witted human barbarian will climb to the top of the pile of bones, sit down and proclaim, I win.

Human history indicates he has a point, however uncomfortable it may be to acknowledge it.

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I: You're the most noble human I know Gwynbleid.
G: I'm not human.
I: I'm glad you reminded me. My hatred towards the species abated for a moment.

They were both joking. A bleak sort of humour perhaps, but then that's the sort of people they are and the sort of situation they're in.

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Roche is a tool. He is as good as the King he serves. Put it this way - when Saskia rules, she will need people like Roche, who unquestioningly follows her simply out of loyalty to the concept of "nation/state" or patriotism. Loyalty is Roche's strongest personality trait, one that I think is commendable.

Roche's loyalty is to Foltest first and Temeria second. I seriously doubt that he would abandon the realm in favour of Saskia. He's too narrowly focused to look at the big picture, especially with Nilfgaard poised to attack.

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I find it very unconvincing that a racist like him will suddenly fight for 'equality'. When I asked him about his goals, he used grandiose statements like "a place where an elf can go to a human inn and humans can enter the forest without fear" - all the while killing and raiding humans who wandered too deeply in the forest, thus creating the fear in the first place. Never mind the fact that nonhumans can go to the inn in Flotsam. I feel his support for such an ideal to be forced and unnatural, a contradiction.

In response to the genocide practiced upon his people by the humans, and the mistreatment of the Scoia'tael by Nilfgaard during the Wars. He didn't wake up one morning, drink some Hatorade and decide to flip out; he watched as his people were systematically used, abused, and slaughtered for decades if not centuries. Eventually it gets to be a bit much.

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When Loredo burned the elf women, he became bitter and went on in another grandiose racist tirade because the humans will not risk their life to save them.

Elves are only fertile for their first century (centuries?) of life. Most of the Elven youth, those capable of continuing the race, are dead. The majority of those died at the hands of humans. Those Elven women represented, in a very real sense, the future of all Elvenkind. And it's the sort of thing that happened not only that day in Flotsam, but in cities and villages all over the Northern Kingdoms and probably into Nilfgaard as well.

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I haven't read the books, but based on playing TW1, I also cannot believe that Zoltan will ask for Geralt to help the S'coiatel storm the prisoner barge. It seems contradictory to what I know about him. This all seem enforced and out of place. Asked Geralt to help him free the prisoners himself maybe, but to associate himself with S'coiatel - and Iorveth at that?

Zoltan led a Scoia'tael unit during the Viziman uprising when Salamandra and the Order tried to wipe out all non-humans in town. He'll fight to protect his people if pushed to it, but he doesn't go around looking to start fights like Yaevinn or Iorveth. And the prison barge was bound for Drakenborg- a prison notorious for torturing its inmates to death in the most grotesque ways imaginable. If you sidedwith Iorveth before battling Letho, Flotsam is re-enacting the Viziman uprising, with non-humans literally beaten and burned to death right in front of you.

Zoltan mightn't have drawn steel in anger without provocation, but there was no end of provocation going on at the time.

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If it were not for his support for Saskia - what is redeeming about Iorveth? I'm convinced that were Saskia a d'hoine, not a dragon, he'll look down on her like the rest.

Unlike Roche, Iorveth stops to consider his actions and the consequences thereof. He knows that what he's doing in the forests around Flotsam is pointless; it's why he tries to get in on the bigger game by helping Letho kill the Kings who would have prevented the rise of the Pontar Valley. Letho calls him his "brother in vengeance" but that could not be further from the truth; Iorveth has long since realised that vengeance is a sucker's game and has other plans entirely. Siding with Letho was a waypoint on a path elsewhere, not the destination in and of itself.

[Kallelinski]

rchristie said:

If it were not for his support for Saskia - what is redeeming about Iorveth? I'm convinced that were Saskia a d'hoine, not a dragon, he'll look down on her like the rest.

However, I cannot put aside the fact that Iorveth fought alongside Saskia for equality of the races. Whatever the reason - boner for the dragoness or otherwise - he helped created a state that strives for equality before the law. Were it not for Iorveth - if the choice is between Saskia and Roche, then the choice is clear. The fact that I despise Iorveth makes choosing between the two paths all the more dilemmatic. ›››

I still can't figure out, what Iorveth really wants or does.

On the one hand he wants to kill as many d'hoine as possible, on the other hand he stands behind Saskia to fight for a free state for all species. I'm still confused about that fact and i can't judge what he is up to.

He is undoubtful a killer, i don't like the term terrorist as mentioned in another thread, but what if the past made him so? Doesn't he have the right to change himself?

He stands for Saskia, defend elves, dwarves and humans, so maybe he changed a little bit in the end.

Also, we shouldn't forget that the most Scoia'tael fought for their freedom, they wanted an own kingdom, some people would say, didn't they? They already have Dol Blathanna, but Queen Enid doesn't want the Scoia'tael, because Emhyr needed them to stir more chaos, so they ended up in a never ending guerilla war, probably most elves don't want anymore. They have no home, no future, no goal, no purpose, except for keeping up a pointless war, they will never win.

They have nothing to lose anymore, but also nothing to win, maybe Iorveth is tired, he wants to end everything and the free state by Saskia is exactly what he wants, a place where he can live, indifferent what he did in the past.

As Saskia said, it will take time before Iorveth or the humans will change, much time, but it is possble.

[Costin Moroianu]

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You are aware that Iorveth (and the overwhelming majority of all of the Scoia'tael) began their fight because humanity waged a war of extermination against all of the Elder Races after their arrival during the Conjunction of the Spheres, yes?

They fought a war yes, but extermination? Hardly. They conquered them and then made them second hand citizens. It should be noted however that they were treated FAR better before the Scoia'Tael were created. This is shown in one of the adventures by CDPR in TW1 which takes place in Vizima before the 2nd war but after the first and where that ghetto we see in TW1 didn't exist.

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In response to the genocide practiced upon his people by the humans,

There is no genocide by the humans. There is a lot of oppression but there is NO organized ethnic cleansing by any state.

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This was in reference to a guard in Flotsam. The self-same guards who incite riots against the non-humans, who rape, murder, and steal from the common people of the township. Frankly, Iorveth was quite restrained compared to what I would have said in his place.

Inciting riots and stealing is true, but murdering and rape ( especially rape ) based on WHAT exactly?

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Roche's loyalty is to Foltest first and Temeria second. I seriously doubt that he would abandon the realm in favour of Saskia. He's too narrowly focused to look at the big picture, especially with Nilfgaard poised to attack.

You missed the point. The OP was saying that Saskia would need someone like Roche with his loyalty, not Roche himself.

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He is undoubtful a killer, i don't like the term terrorist as mentioned in another thread, but what if the past made him so? Doesn't he have the right to change himself?

Terrorist is one who slaughters non-combantants for the sake of striking terror into their enemy, exactly what Iorveth did.

Does he have that right? I don't think he does, but not for the sake of some moral principle but rather that if Saskia wants her state to succeed she will have to rid herself of Iorveth to ensure people respect the notion of justice and Iorveth's crimes are too great to just ignore.

[WrathAscending]

Costin Moroianu said:

There is no genocide by the humans. There is a lot of oppression but there is NO organized ethnic cleansing by any state.

There doesn't need to be much "organised" ethnic cleansing when every kingdom we know of is blithely encouraging its people to exterminate the non-human races. The "disorganised" pogroms being carried out by the common folk are fighteningly effective as it is. And the existence of groups like the Order of the White/Flaming Rose or White Stripes definitely indicates that there is state approval and support for the genocides, whether it is explicit and obvious or more covert.

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Inciting riots and stealing is true, but murdering and rape ( especially rape ) based on WHAT exactly?

During the riots in Flotsam- past and present- Loredo's guards , who just so happened to be out of uniform committed both murder and rape.

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You missed the point. The OP was saying that Saskia would need someone like Roche with his loyalty, not Roche himself.

Saskia seems to have a knack for inspiring that sort of loyalty, though; she had it from everyone in Vergen except Olcan and Stennis.

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Does he have that right? I don't think he does, but not for the sake of some moral principle but rather that if Saskia wants her state to succeed she will have to rid herself of Iorveth to ensure people respect the notion of justice and Iorveth's crimes are too great to just ignore.

Armistices are a part of real-world war's end negotiations. As it is, everyone will have their hands full dealing with the Nilfgaardian invasion, which in turn gives Iorveth a chance to show he's changed and prove himself valuable enough to live.

[Costin Moroianu]

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There doesn't need to be much "organised" ethnic cleansing when every kingdom we know of is blithely encouraging its people to exterminate the non-human races. The "disorganised" pogroms being carried out by the common folk are fighteningly effective as it is. And the existence of groups like the Order of the White/Flaming Rose or White Stripes definitely indicates that there is state approval and support for the genocides, whether it is explicit and obvious or more covert.

The kingdoms are not encouraging people to murder non-humans but what they are doing is shifting blame for the hardships people suffer onto the non-humans. There is a huge difference in that.

The purpose of the Order of the Flaming Rose was not to go on some genocidal crusade, it was to protect humans first and foremost, Jacques himself states this time and time again.

As for the Blue Stripes. They were created to counter the Scoia'Tael during the wars, and after the wars they were used by kings to deal with a large number of issues. From non-human riots, to civil wars, to foreign powers and so on.

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During the riots in Flotsam- past and present- Loredo's guards , who just so happened to be out of uniform committed both murder and rape.

Give me examples of this, Dandelion himself stated the guards were inciting the crowd but nothing more.

And even if the guards were part of the pogrom and thus murdering people where was the rape exactly?

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Armistices are a part of real-world war's end negotiations. As it is, everyone will have their hands full dealing with the Nilfgaardian invasion, which in turn gives Iorveth a chance to show he's changed and prove himself valuable enough to live.

You say that as if the Scoia'Tael are some unified party you can bring to a negotiating table, they aren't. They used to be during the Nilfgaardian wars but they lost their leadership and now it's separated into various units who do not work together.

[Wichat]

Costin Moroianu said:

There is no genocide by the humans. There is a lot of oppression but there is NO organized ethnic cleansing by any state.
›››

Ouch! Now I have to revisit the meaning of pogrom which Spawoski refers when he mentions them as routine acts of humans since their arrival in the land of the old races and establishing its dominance as a superior race ...

[WrathAscending]

Costin Moroianu said:

The kingdoms are not encouraging people to murder non-humans but what they are doing is shifting blame for the hardships people suffer onto the non-humans. There is a huge difference in that.

Not when the outcome of that lie is that the common people consistently slaughter innocent non-humans. It's like saying that pulling a gun's trigger is not what kills someone since a bullet does it, but the bullet would never hit without being aimed and fired at the right time.

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The purpose of the Order of the Flaming Rose was not to go on some genocidal crusade, it was to protect humans first and foremost, Jacques himself states this time and time again.

Corylea pulled his dialogue in another thread. He was definitely planning to eradicate the non-human races; Vizima may have provided him with an unexpected opportunity, but it was always a part of his plan.

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As for the Blue Stripes. They were created to counter the Scoia'Tael during the wars, and after the wars they were used by kings to deal with a large number of issues. From non-human riots, to civil wars etc.

And, by Roche's own admission, as a terror weapon against Elder Race non-combatants the same way the Scoia'tael were acting towards humans.

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Give me examples of this, Dandelion himself stated the guards were inciting the crowd but nothing more.

It may be more from the English translation than the original Polish (or Romanian) version, but Dandelion and other NPCs in town (along with Iorveth, who may or may not be a reliable source) speak of past riots where the same sort of events we see playing out at the end of Act I took place. Rape is mostly alluded to rather than directly stated, but we know from the treatment of Moril and others that it would be about par for the course from Loredo and his thugs if given the opportunity; certainly it's something that Malena's afraid of.

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And even if the guards were part of the pogrom and thus murdering people where was the rape exactly?

Sad fact of life is that it goes hand-in-hand with such events in the real world, falls within the expected set of behaviours from Loredo and company, and is at least alluded to if not stated outright by a few NPCs.

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You say that as if the Scoia'Tael are some unified party you can bring to a negotiating table, they aren't. They used to be during the Nilfgaardian wars but they lost their leadership and now it's separated into various units who do not work together.

Iorveth's been able to gather a decent force (probably on the basis of his exploits as one of the Vriheadd [sp?]) and can probably leverage that into establishing an ex-Scoia'tael cadre for the Pontar Valley/Upper Aedirn military. It's more that he'll have to be negotiated with personally or via Saskia as a result of where he's placed his support than that he'll show up at peace talks representing the Scoia'tael.

[Bloth]

I think you are right OP, Iorveth is undeniably a racist and his past crimes cannot be forgiven. Some point out that we do not know what crimes he commits, but we do know the sickening lengths the scoiatael went to in the war with Nilfgaard, atrocities that make Iorveth more feared than even the butcher of Blaviken in his home town of Vergen. Those crimes cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

His speech on the ascent of man pinpoints just how little he knows about mankind, that we are herd like in mentality, and it will not be a single human that survives his brethren, but a society or leader who rises to prominence before being pulled down by the next superior contender. He underestimates and does not wish to understand us, and that's why he and his people lose.

The elves think of themselves as the zenith of civilisation (with good reason) but as with all peoples who *know* that they are in the right, they refuse to look beyond themselves, question their own behaviour or accept any challenger. Thus in another world the Aen Elle have slaughtered and enslaved all humanity, endless fields of bone nourish the gardens. Thus we see the scoiatael striking at humanity in the Nilfgaard war with the battlecry of, "into the sea" indicating they wish to commit genocide on all humans. Thus we hear from Yarpen Zigrin of how it was dwarven arses that were filled with arrows before the arrival of humanity, and the Aen Saiedhe were cruel and arrogant rulers.

The elven empire fell as empires do, they had their chance to stop humanity, but failed. That is the way of things. Now the scoiatael wage a hopeless war to reclaim that empire from its new conquerors, and that cannot end with anything other than the extinction of the scoiatael and maybe even all elvenkind. Iorveth is wise and cunning enough to know that cause is doomed so he puts aside hate to follow the path of peace and partnership, that cannot be faulted but his past crimes still stand.

All those centuries of fighting humanity and commiting atrocities have not helped his people, and even as he mocks the "valley of sterile elders," he must realise that at least there a few children are born and survive, rather than be killed in an unwinnable war. How many young elves have fallen under his command, elves that could have served a useful cause such as he now pursues.

But one thing must be remembered, the Aen Elle were working on a superweapon, a genetic god. Thanks to the vagaries of time, that scheme long forgotten in the witchers worlds, is keenly remembered by its creators and may yet come to pass if they have their way. The war may not be over, or even have truly started. Their rulership will not be pogroms and harsh laws, it will be slavery and genocide, as has been proven.

[Costin Moroianu]

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Not when the outcome of that lie is that the common people consistently slaughter innocent non-humans. It's like saying that pulling a gun's trigger is not what kills someone since a bullet does it, but the bullet would never hit without being aimed and fired at the right time.

I did not say that what they are doing doesn't make them responsible in any way, but rather that it is NOT genocide.

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Corylea pulled his dialogue in another thread. He was definitely planning to eradicate the non-human races; Vizima may have provided him with an unexpected opportunity, but it was always a part of his plan.

A secondary goal, if even that ( that dialogue isn't always said btw it depends on your choices ). The main purpose of the order was to preserve humanity against the frost. That's what Jacques obsession was about and you will have a hard time convicing me that that slaughtering elves was more important then that to him.

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And, by Roche's own admission, as a terror weapon against Elder Race non-combatants the same way the Scoia'tael were acting towards humans.

Where exactly does he say this?

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It may be more from the English translation than the original Polish (or Romanian) version, but Dandelion and other NPCs in town (along with Iorveth, who may or may not be a reliable source) speak of past riots where the same sort of events we see playing out at the end of Act I took place. Rape is mostly alluded to rather than directly stated, but we know from the treatment of Moril and others that it would be about par for the course from Loredo and his thugs if given the opportunity; certainly it's something that Malena's afraid of.

Melanna specifically says torture, that might include rape or not that is not certain.

As for Loredo and Morril? That was a VERY special case that only happened with her because of Loredo's mother who had some notion of the prophecy. She was wrong mind you and completely insane.

It certainly would not be the norm. Hell if anything the two elven lassies who got raped by Loredo seemed to have been rare cases based on the fact that their disappearance had such an effect to the point the Scoia'Tael stopped trusting the non-humans in Flotsman.

Rape is a serious accusation. Don't fling it around just because you think that Loredo's guards would do it.

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Thus we hear from Yarpen Zigrin of how it was dwarven arses that were filled with arrows before the arrival of humanity, and the Aen Saiedhe were cruel and arrogant rulers.

This is why I don't have any real sympathy for the Scoia'Tael. They came and conquered the dwarves and ruled as tyrants. They committed made a virus that wiped out the Vrans ( Iorveth's path EE quest ) and have show in that other world what they can do to humans.

It's easy to see the humans as the conquerors who showed no mercy, but did the Scoia'Tael ever show mercy themselves?

[rchristie]

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I seriously doubt that he would abandon the realm in favour of Saskia. He's too narrowly focused to look at the big picture, especially with Nilfgaard poised to attack.

I was not implying that Roche will help Saskia, merely pointing out that people like Roche, whose creed is loyalty, is necessary tool for every monarch, wicked or wise. Please note the word "Saskia will need someone like Roche" - not necessarily Roche.

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Elves are only fertile for their first century (centuries?) of life. Most of the Elven youth, those capable of continuing the race, are dead. The majority of those died at the hands of humans. Those Elven women represented, in a very real sense, the future of all Elvenkind. And it's the sort of thing that happened not only that day in Flotsam, but in cities and villages all over the Northern Kingdoms and probably into Nilfgaard as well.

That is not a reason to require every humans to risk their lives for elves. Their life is worth just the same. It's no justification to the incredibly bigoted and racist tirade that follows. And you missed the point - Iorveth condemned these very same women to death just before blaming the humans for their deaths - also, S'coiatel won't risk their own necks for human women in a fiery building - but they require humans to do so for them.

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He didn't wake up one morning, drink some Hatorade and decide to flip out; he watched as his people were systematically used, abused, and slaughtered for decades if not centuries. Eventually it gets to be a bit much.

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You are aware that Iorveth (and the overwhelming majority of all of the Scoia'tael) began their fight because humanity waged a war of extermination against all of the Elder Races after their arrival during the Conjunction of the Spheres, yes? They are subjected every day to persecution and pogroms; Geralt died trying to stop one such uprising. Such a response should hardly be surprising.

• Just because you're being robbed, doesn't mean you have the right to rob others.
  
• Just because you are abused as a child, doesn't give you the right to abuse children
  
• Just because the Jews were almost annihilated in Holocaust, doesn't give them the right to do the same towards Palestinians or Germans.

It's not an excuse. Stop using it to defend his actions. With your logic, just because Westerners enslaved black population in the past - it gives black people the right to enslave Westerners.

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Human history indicates he has a point, however uncomfortable it may be to acknowledge it.

If you were to judge it by the history alone, you'll think of the same towards Arabs and Caucasians. You'll think of the same of gypsies and Muslims. Will you condemn an entire race because history has shown that they are capable of acts of great cruelty? Well, slaughter the Mongols then - don't forget the German barbarians while you're at it.

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If you sidedwith Iorveth before battling Letho, Flotsam is re-enacting the Viziman uprising, with non-humans literally beaten and burned to death right in front of you.

Loredo started and enacted it. He is vile, sure - but to condemn the whole town? Will you condemn the whole of Germany for Kristallnacht? You would note from the dwarven community leader that "It was not always this way - things turns to bad when some elven lass started dissapearing" (Moril kidnapped by Loredo). You'll also note Seherim state the same thing "I can't believe all the bad blood this disappearance has caused". Loredo is behind all this - inciting the crowds and all, just like the Nazis were behind Kristallnacht, not the town.

If you sympathize with Iorveth because the elves been abused, where is your sympathy for humans who has lost their loved ones to the elves? S'coiatel burned entire villages to the ground - that, along with their elder blood supremacist tendencies does not make them has the higher moral ground.

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This was in reference to a guard in Flotsam. The self-same guards who incite riots against the non-humans, who rape, murder, and steal from the common people of the township. Frankly, Iorveth was quite restrained compared to what I would have said in his place.

And what of the S'coiatel members, who burned entire villages to the ground? Effectively killing the entire population? What sort of words would you have said to them?

Cedric is the only interesting elf character in the game. Although I do not agree with his pacifist tendencies, he is the only one that makes sense in terms of racial conflict in the game. That's what makes his death incredibly tragic for me. He would've made a much better companion for Geralt than both Iorveth and Roche.

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Iorveth was not a nice person in the past, no. But he changes, as many of the NPCs in Act II point out.

That is true, he seems to have changed, but the change is so sudden and unexplained it is unbelievable for me. The same Iorveth does not hide his hatred towards humans - now he wanted to make a land where everyone is equal? Have you seen the way the elven S'coiatel talk during the sex scene with Triss? Do you not sense a very bigoted sense of racial supremacy?

[Bloth]

Cedric was an amazingly interesting character, it speaks well of CDPR that they make a bit part actor so complicated and relatable. What really stands out with that old elf is how protective the folk of Lobinden are towards him, bluntly telling Loredo's guards to piss off when they are looking for him. It shows just how close together the two people can become if they just reach out, his loss is a bloody tragedy for both Lobinden and elvenkind.

[WrathAscending]

Costin Moroianu said:

I did not say that what they are doing doesn't make them responsible in any way, but rather that it is NOT genocide.

It's aimed at wiping out one set of people (the non-human races). Whether it takes a day or many years for that to happen is besides the point.

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A secondary goal, if even that ( that dialogue isn't always said btw it depends on your choices ).

One of Alvin's favourite games as a child was "Kill the Elf." He talks about wanting to play it with Geralt. He creates an organisation of humans to further that goal, and engages in his mutation experiments to get more effective non-human killers.

Whether he says it in any particular playthrough is irrelevant; the player may not discover until too late that Javed has asssumed Marlowe's identity, but that does not mean that the opportunity to learn of it was not there or that he did not do so. Whether Alvin specifically made that goal clear to your Geralt or not, it was clearly something he was working on.

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The main purpose of the order was to preserve humanity against the frost. That's what Jacques obsession was about and you will have a hard time convicing me that that slaughtering elves was more important then that to him.

That was the long-term goal, yes. However, to get to the long-term goal involved taking care of intermediate steps, one of which involved the extermination of the non-human races to clear the decks for humanity later on.

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Where exactly does he say this?

You can talk to him in the Prelude and Act I about the Blue Stripes. The Blue Stripes in the barracks don't exactly make a secret of it, either.

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Melanna specifically says torture, that might include rape or not that is not certain.

Ves was going to be subjected to torture. Every female captive we know Loredo took was. Honestly, the only motivation I had for following Roche at any point was that it would allow for the well-deserved killing of Loredo.

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Rape is a serious accusation. Don't fling it around just because you think that Loredo's guards would do it.

The game stops juuuust short of saying it outright and shows them engaged in that behaviour any way. Given that the horrors they were demonstrably perpetrating, I hardly think the lack of direct evidence is that big a deal.

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This is why I don't have any real sympathy for the Scoia'Tael. They came and conquered the dwarves and ruled as tyrants. They committed made a virus that wiped out the Vrans ( Iorveth's path EE quest ) and have show in that other world what they can do to humans.

True, but why does the future have to be as bad as the past? Iorveth changes, and for the better. Zoltan changes. Geralt's not the same as he was in the books because we're in the driver's seat. Things can be different, if people are willing to work for it. Saskia's kingdom and ideals are worth fighting for- it's the best chance for co-existence at the time, possibly ever.

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It's easy to see the humans as the conquerors who showed no mercy, but did the Scoia'Tael ever show mercy themselves?

Why would they? Do unto others and all that. The Aen Sidhe aren't perfect; nobody is. But when your opponent very deliberately raises the stakes to the point that your very existence is at stake, you either fight as hard as you need to in order to win or submit to destruction.

Humans showed the Scoia'tael how far they would have to go. Neither side is blameless- far from it- but without humanity collectively trying to annihilate the Elder Races, the Elder Races would never have responded the way they did.

[rchristie]

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Unlike Roche, Iorveth stops to consider his actions and the consequences thereof. He knows that what he's doing in the forests around Flotsam is pointless; it's why he tries to get in on the bigger game by helping Letho kill the Kings who would have prevented the rise of the Pontar Valley. Letho calls him his "brother in vengeance" but that could not be further from the truth; Iorveth has long since realised that vengeance is a sucker's game and has other plans entirely. Siding with Letho was a waypoint on a path elsewhere, not the destination in and of itself.

Does Iorveth considers his actions when commit heinous acts in the past? Does he consider the fact that his raids and war further drives a wedge between humans and non-humans, making peace almost impossible? Does he also think about the fate of non humans in Temeria when there is chaos and civil war? Or did he just agreed to kill Foltest out of spite? I wonder. Also, your statement that "he knows what he's doing in Flotsam is pointless .. vengeance is a sucker's game" is pure speculation. I've never heard it from his own mouth.

"Foltest may seem like he's charismatic - but he's allowing persecution to happen to non humans." (Iorveth)

He realizes Foltest doesn't actually persecute humans, Foltest just doesn't fight for non humans rights. And he kills Foltest anyway. This is the same as condemning every American politician before Civil War to death just because they didn't fight for civil rights.

I would also give more credit to Roche than you. He's hot headed maybe, but he doesn't rush - he doesn't kill Loredo directly, he collected evidence and hatched a plan. He does consider his actions and consequences.

Roche snapped at the end of Chapter 2 and 3 - as he said it, his King is dead, his country in ruins, and all members of his unit killed. This is by no means his real self. Remember that Roche trusts Geralt even though Geralt gave a weapon to Iorveth. He also helps Geralt even though Geralt went with Iorveth. If he does not care nor think about his actions like you say he is, he would have attacked Geralt directly.

In EE - when you use the device in Loc Muinne to see Roche, you'll see him talking coldly about killing Geralt because he has sided with Iorveth. He's just as cold and calculating as Iorveth is - although certainly more enthusiastic in the way he speaks.

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There doesn't need to be much "organised" ethnic cleansing when every kingdom we know of is blithely encouraging its people to exterminate the non-human races. The "disorganised" pogroms being carried out by the common folk are fighteningly effective as it is. And the existence of groups like the Order of the White/Flaming Rose or White Stripes definitely indicates that there is state approval and support for the genocides, whether it is explicit and obvious or more covert.

If I recall correctly, Foltest actually has to fight the Order. The pogroms and uprising started when Foltest is not around. When Foltest went back he actually settles things back to normal. So I am doubtful of 'state approval'. Even if it's true, it's still no justification for condeming the entire race and burning entire villages to the ground. Killing the King, maybe - but flattening a village and killing all of the inhabitants?

Also, the existence of a political group does not necessarily mean support from those in power. Recall the power struggle between the Order and Foltest. Political and paramilitary organizations may rise and has popular support even though not condoned or even opposed by the state. You also speak of the Order as if eliminating the non humans were the only thing they do - it's not. Their functions in society is more than that. In a way, they are like Hamas in Gaza. Hamas built hospitals and schools, but they are also a paramilitary organization bent on the destruction of Israel and "driving the Jews to the sea".

[Costin Moroianu]

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It's aimed at wiping out one set of people (the non-human races). Whether it takes a day or many years for that to happen is besides the point.

No it's not aimed at doing that, it's aimed at the northern monarch keeping the rabble in their place.

Again huge difference.

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One of Alvin's favourite games as a child was "Kill the Elf." He talks about wanting to play it with Geralt. He creates an organisation of humans to further that goal, and engages in his mutation experiments to get more effective non-human killers.

Whether he says it in any particular playthrough is irrelevant; the player may not discover until too late that Javed has asssumed Marlowe's identity, but that does not mean that the opportunity to learn of it was not there or that he did not do so. Whether Alvin specifically made that goal clear to your Geralt or not, it was clearly something he was working on.

Because of a line he might say depending on your actions or because he was playing a game human kids play? Or are you going to tell me every child in that village was planning to commit genocide on the elves?

His actions with regards to the elves speak more clearly to me then anything else. He was using them as a tool to gain power.

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You can talk to him in the Prelude and Act I about the Blue Stripes. The Blue Stripes in the barracks don't exactly make a secret of it, either.

What exactly does he says that proves this point? Because I talked with him and I talked with the blue stripes. Never once they mentioned terror tactics ( hell we only know Roche deals with suppressing rebelling human communities from the journal )

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Ves was going to be subjected to torture. Every female captive we know Loredo took was. Honestly, the only motivation I had for following Roche at any point was that it would allow for the well-deserved killing of Loredo

Ves was impersonating a whore, and Loredo doing something does not mean his guards are.

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The game stops juuuust short of saying it outright and shows them engaged in that behaviour any way. Given that the horrors they were demonstrably perpetrating, I hardly think the lack of direct evidence is that big a deal.

Then excuse me if I don't take your argument seriously considering the lack of proof.

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Saskia's kingdom and ideals are worth fighting for- it's the best chance for co-existence at the time, possibly ever.

No it's not. The ideals of the kingdoms are worth fighting for but the kingdom itself will collapse due to ineffective leadership on Saskia's part.

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But when your opponent very deliberately raises the stakes to the point that your very existence is at stake, you either fight as hard as you need to in order to win or submit to destruction.

The opponent in this case was willing to allow the elves to live. The Pogroms only started after the Scoia'Tael began NOT before. Sure there was oppression and all that but not on the scale it got to later, no where near it actually.

And even if it were genocide, which it isn't ( check a dictionary on the definition of pogrom and genocide ) then you do not fight it by attempting genocide yourself.

[Bloth]

There is no state approval of the pogroms against non humans, in fact in many places dwarves are thriving. Demavend and Aedirn were one of the few kingdoms to actively pursue persecution of elves, for some reason the old king hated them with a passion, and found a willing commander in the hideously tortured by elves Rayla. The other northern kingdoms are happy to ocassionally shrug trouble off onto the non humans but are in no way aiming for genocide. Unlike the scoiatael and Aen Elle who most definitely are.

Then again this appeals to the elves who like to think of themselves as victims, in their nasty little minds they can put aside any act no matter how debased, and call it simply justice. Geralt would stand against such people every day of the week, because in this instance the barbaric and cruel mass of humanity is the lesser evil.

[rchristie]

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Thus we hear from Yarpen Zigrin of how it was dwarven arses that were filled with arrows before the arrival of humanity, and the Aen Saiedhe were cruel and arrogant rulers.

I haven't heard that quote in the game, although I do know that the elves created a virus that causes infertility in Vrans. I find it amusing that the elves are now suffering through the same fertility problem like the Vrans of past.

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True, but why does the future have to be as bad as the past? Iorveth changes, and for the better. Zoltan changes. Geralt's not the same as he was in the books because we're in the driver's seat. Things can be different, if people are willing to work for it. Saskia's kingdom and ideals are worth fighting for- it's the best chance for co-existence at the time, possibly ever.

Saskia's ideals, not Iorveth's. It's like a prank from CDPR. To support such an idea you will have to work with a racist mass murderer.

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Why would they? Do unto others and all that. The Aen Sidhe aren't perfect; nobody is. But when your opponent very deliberately raises the stakes to the point that your very existence is at stake, you either fight as hard as you need to in order to win or submit to destruction.

I find your response amusing. "Do unto others what you want them to do to you". Which means if the elves wanted to be treated as if their lives are precious, they should start doing just that for the humans. That is actually one of the point of my post - Iorveth made the lives of the humans/non-humans in Flotsam a living hell. However when the elven women that he himself condemned to death are dead he puts the blames to the humans. Effectively requiring the humans to risk their lives to save them even though him and his unit wouldn't do the same for human women.

Of course this applies to the humans too. I made my disdain to Loredo perfectly clear. As a response to all who stated the city guard's horrible deeds - I will simply paraphrase Triss, "I'm all for punishing the guilty, but can't abide racial-group responsibility". I see no difference between Loredo and Iorveth, both are vile and thorns to the possibility of peace. I also see no difference between the guards with the S'coiatels who would burn entire villages to the ground.

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Cedric was an amazingly interesting character, it speaks well of CDPR that they make a bit part actor so complicated and relatable. What really stands out with that old elf is how protective the folk of Lobinden are towards him, bluntly telling Loredo's guards to piss off when they are looking for him. It shows just how close together the two people can become if they just reach out, his loss is a bloody tragedy for both Lobinden and elvenkind.

Indeed. Again, I'm still sad that Cedric has to die. I'm not ashamed that I almost cried when he died. His words, "I killed a d'hoine, again.." and the way he said it cuts like a knife. Why can't I have Cedric as a companion instead of Iorveth? He's also dead, so no returning for him in TW3. Damn.

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Humans showed the Scoia'tael how far they would have to go. Neither side is blameless- far from it- but without humanity collectively trying to annihilate the Elder Races, the Elder Races would never have responded the way they did.

Read about the Aen Elle, elves from other dimensions that killed off and driven the humans from their home dimension. Human bone piles in caves and all. Also, if you do the quest with Cynthia in Iorveth's path, you get to learn that the extinction of the Vrans is in part because of an infertility virus created by the elves. Quite the innocent teddy bears, those elves, huh?

[WrathAscending]

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That is not a reason to require every humans to risk their lives for elves. Their life is worth just the same. It's no justification to the incredibly bigoted and racist tirade that follows. And you missed the point - Iorveth condemned these very same women to death just before blaming the humans for their deaths - also, S'coiatel won't risk their own necks for human women in a fiery building - but they require humans to do so for them.

The decision to immolate the Elves was entirely Loredo's; the decision as to whether to save them or not is entirely Geralt's. One of the themes that the series consistently addresses is trying to choose the lesser of two evils. Do you save three innocents, or pursue the scum who put them there and ensure he can never harm anyone again?

Iorveth doesn't ask Geralt to save the Elven women (at least in the English version); as far as he is concerned, staying any longer puts their escape in jeopardy, and to him the lesser of two evils is allowing them to die and getting away so that he can save many other lives later on by helping Saskia create the free Pontar Valley.

It's an unplesant choice, but unfortunately sometimes those sorts of calls have to be made.

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It's not an excuse. Stop using it to defend his actions. With your logic, just because Westerners enslaved black population in the past - it gives black people the right to enslave Westerners.

There is a big difference between a reason and an excuse. An excuse is "you can't blame me because..." A reason is "we're doing it because..." I've explained their reasons; I haven't excused them.

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If you were to judge it by the history alone, you'll think of the same towards Arabs and Caucasians.

Yes. I think that such actions are never excusable no matter who undertakes them or whatever justifications they try to use to console themselves. Humans are humans; we're all the same in that regard.

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You'll think of the same of gypsies and Muslims. Will you condemn an entire race because history has shown that they are capable of acts of great cruelty? Well, slaughter the Mongols then - don't forget the German barbarians.

I'll condemn those who are enacting a genocide, or at least trying to- humans have been a lot more successful on that front than the Elder Races. And since humanity has the greatest power in the world, they also have the moral responsibility to use that power wisely; they have the greater capacity for destruction and a duty to ensure that as few innocents are harmed as possible.

The non-humans, in turn, have a responsibility to stop escalating the conflict, but when one side has such vastly disproportionate power the onus is on them to be discerning.

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Loredo started and enacted it. He is vile, sure - but to condemn the whole town? Will you condemn the whole of Germany for Kristallnacht? You would note from the dwarven community leader that "It was not always this way - things turns to bad when some elven lass started dissapearing" (Moril kidnapped by Loredo). You'll also note Seherim state the same thing "I can't believe all the bad blood this disappearance has caused". Loredo is behind all this - inciting the crowds and all, just like the Nazis were behind Kristallnacht, not the town.

Most of the town enthusiastically supports what Loredo is doing. Those who don't have to hide their feelings very carefully- Margot commits suicide rather than fall into Loredo's hands because she knows what he would do to her. And once they make the choice to throw in with Lordeo and his enforcers, to do the same things they are doing, I judge them on that basis. They decided to murder the innocent, or torment them in other ways, and they do not get a pass for that.

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And what of the S'coiatel members, who burned entire villages to the ground? Effectively killing the entire population? What sort of words would you have said to them?

As Dandelion says, sometimes you have to bow to the necessities of the situation. Iorveth had, at least in my opinion, the best chance of getting me to Triss. Since both options were bad, I went with the one that seemed the least bad.

The only other alternative is to stop playing the game, after all.

That said, once you get to Vergen you get to see the difference in Iorveth. Does it change his past? No. But which is the lesser of two evils, executing him or allowing him to live so that he can fight for a free Pontar Valley and effect a lasting, positive change on the world?

I don't know if you've played it, but there is an older game that deals with this question in detail- Planescape: Torment. The central theme is "What can change the nature of a man?", and the story is about someone who committed so hideous a crime special hells had to be created for him after he died so that he could go to the fate he had earned. Discovering this, he sought a way to make himself immortal... and compounded his sin over and over again across countless lifetimes. Is there anything that can ever be done to balance the scales? Is it even worth trying to set things right, or at least make things as right as you can?

Everyone's answers will vary. For myself, I think nothing can wipe out has been done, but that's no reason not to strive for change.

Iorveth is in very much a similar situation. He can't cancel out what he's done already, but he can be different- better- going forward. And his strength and abilities can protect thousands of innocents.

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That is true, he seems to have changed, but the change is so sudden and unexplained it is unbelievable for me.

The change is massive and swift because of two things.

First and foremost, no-one has ever tried what Saskia is doing. Thus, there's no baseline to compare it to.

Secondly, the world of The Witcher is explicitly one in which True Love can do incredible things, up to and including completely supressing curses or changing the very nature of rapacious creatures like Bruxae.

***The quote maximum of the forum software is pretty harsh, my apologies for spamming the thread.**