[Kodaemon]

The problem with TW2 combat is that it's stuck somewhere between Batman and Souls and doesn't know in which direction to go.

Here's my solution: bring back styles, make each style control differently. Make group style more like Batman, make one-on-one combat more like Souls.

But first: STUDY both systems this time and pay attention to what actually makes them good, mmmkay?

[ZinuX]

Sirnaq said:

Geralt is not knight and never will be ›››

Wasn't Geralt actually knighted? Geralt of Rivia...

[Costin Moroianu]

Sirnaq said:

I would like to see backpedal and side evasion from risen1.


Hell no! Geralt is not knight and never will be, all his offense and defense is based on his agility, making him less agile and giving him heavy full plate armor is retarded. All armors that geralt can wear can't constrain his movements otherwise any fight with monsters would be lethal. ›››

I didn't say give him full plate Simaq, bother reading exactly what I mentioned.

Look at TW2 armors. You have leather ones, you have ones with leather and chainmail and you have ones made pretty much from mail with some cloth ( Vran Armor for instance is what I'd consider mail ).

What I want is for that chainmail armor to slow him down vs the leather one because it makes sense.

Remember how in TW1 it was said how Revan's Armor was made with special mail so that it was light enough for a witcher to move properly? Fast Forward to W2 and most armors have some chainmail on them!

[Prince_of_Nothing]

OMG, I think I need a drink

I just fought against the Operator for the first time, and I think I'm going to be sick. I never counted how many times I died, but it was an absurd amount of times (I managed to beat him in the end though, but it was bittersweet). It is by FAR, the gayest battle I've ever fought in all my long years of gaming..


Please CDPR, don't EVER put that crap in your games again.

That fight underscored ALL the weaknesses inherent in the Witcher 2's combat BIG TIME, and then amplified them to a ridiculous degree.

If anyone hasn't fought the Operator, do yourself a favor and avoid the bastard..

[gaurdian]

They could add dodge which would be automatically done by Geralt like TW1, evasive step which would create a distance between him and the enemy and finally, site step which would change the position and angle relating to the enemy.

I've been practicing sword as a part of wushu training for a few years now and those three are the base for defense apart from blocking and countering.

[gaurdian]

Prince_of_Nothing said:

That fight underscored ALL the weaknesses inherent in the Witcher 2's combat BIG TIME, and then amplified them to a ridiculous degree.

If anyone hasn't fought the Operator, do yourself a favor and avoid the bastard.. ›››

The operator's battle is the most difficult fight in game story.

[Prince_of_Nothing]

gaurdian said:

The operator's battle is the most difficult fight in game story. ›››

It was difficult for the wrong reasons. I can't remember how many times Geralt ran into some stupid invisible wall or barrier and ended up getting killed.. Or having the gargoyles land out of nowhere and knock Geralt down, killing him easily..

My patience just about ran it's course with this one.. Perhaps I was too low level, or didn't have the right gear yet or something (I was still using chapter 2 gear), but man, that fight was a muthafucka!

[guipit]

Kodaemon said:

The problem with TW2 combat is that it's stuck somewhere between Batman and Souls and doesn't know in which direction to go.

Here's my solution: bring back styles, make each style control differently. Make group style more like Batman, make one-on-one combat more like Souls. ›››

I think what they got from Souls was just stats how much damage the enemy does. What they got from Batman was this lock-on system which focused on being really fast and just switching from one opponent to another stunning and damaging them all so they can't react.

Which they didn't do very well because you can't switch targets until your combo was over or I don't know maybe you needed to stop slashing then switch enemies(anyone wanna confirm?). At least that's what I think they were trying to go for.

Costin Moroianu said:

What I want is for that chainmail armor to slow him down vs the leather one because it makes sense. ›››

It does make sense but Geralt always chooses light armor even if he chose slightly heavier light armor it wouldn't change that much. I don't think players would even notice if they did implement that.

that's like having only >25% equipment burden and a few >50%equipment burden armors in Dark Souls.

[gaurdian]

Prince_of_Nothing said:

It was difficult for the wrong reasons. I can't remember how many times Geralt ran into some stupid invisible wall or barrier and ended up getting killed.. Or having the gargoyles land out of nowhere and knock Geralt down, killing him easily..

My patience just about ran it's course with this one.. Perhaps I was too low level, or didn't have the right gear yet or something (I was still using chapter 2 gear), but man, that fight was a muthafucka! ›››

Gears, potions and character build are all important.
but don't call yourself a low level because this battle is different and some how the environment is stupid. REDs had known this and made it optional.
by practice you'll find the rhythm of it.

[Costin Moroianu]

I always find it funny how people climb on to the rooftops to say the gameplay design is bad just because they had a hard time with a fight in the game.

Mind you there are problems, but having problems with a fight doesn't mean it's broken.

[gaurdian]

Costin Moroianu said:

I always find it funny how people climb on to the rooftops to say the gameplay design is bad just because they had a hard time with a fight in the game.

Mind you there are problems, but having problems with a fight doesn't mean it's broken. ›››

fully agreed !

fighting mechanics may look difficult at the first glance but the player can get used to it.

[Prince_of_Nothing]

Costin Moroianu said:

Mind you there are problems, but having problems with a fight doesn't mean it's broken. ›››

I didn't say it was broken, just that it was a muthafucka; and the combat issues certainly don't help at all, nor do the invisible barrier glitches..

Anyway, this is my second play through of the Witcher 2. My first play through was shortly after the game was released, so I've forgotten quite a bit.

After doing some reading, it seems there is some specific gear that would have enabled me to beat the Operator with far greater ease, namely the Ysgith armor and the silver sword Deithwen. I could have gotten both of these items before fighting the Operator, but I used my Chapter 2 gear which made the encounter much more difficult than it had to be..

[KnightofPhoenix]

The one thing I'd want them to focus on is a dueling system when against singular "important" foes, like say Letho.

Letho was being built up as this lighting fast beast, which we can see in the cinematic opening. But in-game, he's just like any other regular bloke with a 2 handed sword + signs and grenades.

The duel that could have been better and with less gameplay / story segregation.

[gaurdian]

Speaking of Letho . . . It would have been much greater if there were some quick action sequences or for example Geralt and Letho grab on each other in-between the battle and the player would counter this, just the way like arm wrestling.

[slimgrin]

Well this thread went ape shit. Since when does it make sense to jettison everything they built up in TW2? Just let them tweak it and I'm sure we'll get something better. Radically overhauling it would be a mistake.

[mastone]

I haven't played dark souls and from the look of it is not about skill but about remembering where things are in a level which means you have to die a lot before you remember where shit is or just don't have a life and play all day.
Now I don't knwo how old the game is ( is it dark souls 1 or 2?), but it didn't look the least bit interesting to me.
I played a demo of batman arkham, but found even the 15 minute demo to be insanely repetetive.

I agree with the people who say that they just need to expand on what they have at the moment and create something for themselves:
I would say use roll to avoid the big heavy charges and sweeps but use dodge and weave ( like boxers do)or sidesteps to avoid regular attacks, but make these sidesteps difficult because having practiced martial arts myself for a bit I know that once you succesfully performed a sidestep the opponent is basicaly done and over with.

Instead of a shield I would imagine geralt using a bracer( armored armband) since this would reflect a high risk witcher fighting style and leave his sword(hand) available for attacking.
Also rolling from a blocking position would be usefull.

With regards to different swordstyles ( fast/strong/group), I found this to be unrealistic in the witcher 1.
I imagine that it would be better that Geralt would have different fighting styles ( like kung fu/karate/capoeira-don't mean he actual fighting styles, but more the difference between them, I just don't know many different sword styles), like a rigid form which works best against trained armored opponents ( soldiers/scoiatael) and a freeform style for wild and unpredictable enemies ( nekkers and drowners and the likes).
I personally feel that a sword in a crowded area does group damage automatically, I would however make it possible to invest skill points in the amoumt of damage this does.

With regards to the camera position I have only one suggestion and that is make sure that everything that is between Geralt and my point of view get's cut out ( maybe with a nice blur) so I am not having to guess if I am hitting the opponents or the thin air )

furthermore I hope they will strike a better balance between the difficulty levels in general, because on normal I could not even get Letho's healthbar to reach halfpoint, he even managed to hit me while I was rolling during chapter one, when I set it to easy it is like the guy stands in a default t-pose and I smacked him senseless within 10 seconds.
I would also suggest to make enemies harder to beat the further you come along, because except for that golem and those elementals they were a breeze especially in chapter 3, hell with the dragon I didn't even have any difficulty I just threw a couple of bombs at its face and rolling in with a couple of heavy blows.

I would say make hard so difficult that people start complaining that the game is unbeatable on the forums, and dark and insane only for people who have some serious issues( only joking of course)

POTIONS:
I know it is an unpopular viewpoint and it probably get's me a couple of minuses in reputation, but they are unusefull /unuseable in the witcher 2.
At least to me it didn't make much sense.
in the witcher 1 you could swallow the potions during a fight, in the witcher 2 you have to meditate to take them ( yes I know that the books dictate that he needs to do that fanboys but we are playing a game and not everyone likes or is inclined to read them), now this wouldn't be an issue if I knew when shit was about to hit the fan, but 9/10 there just is a monster at the end of the hallway or some cutscene that pops up which indicates I am in for some serious trouble and I can't use it anymore and have to roll for half an hour or just let m eget killed and load up an earlier save, sometimes you know what is coming but haven't figured out what you're in for and haven't any idea how to fight the monster so instead of taking dedicated potions you just swallow rook and swallow and hope for the best.

My suggestion would be make in battle potions possible for easy and normal, optional for hard and not possible for insane/darkmode

[Kallelinski]

ZinuX said:

Wasn't Geralt actually knighted? Geralt of Rivia... ›››

Jup, he is indeed a knight, but it is just a title.

[Sparrowhawk]

ZinuX said:

Wasn't Geralt actually knighted? Geralt of Rivia... ›››

Yes, in the books...

The funny thing about this is that he is knighted in the book "Baptism by Fire" after a huge battle in which he leads Queen Meve of Rivia's soldiers to retake a bridge on the Yaruga river. In recognition of his bravery she knights him Sir Geralt of Rivia. The funny thing is that up until that point he'd been calling himself Geralt of Rivia, but he isn't even from Rivia. In fact I think he kind of picked it at some point in the beginning of his Witcher career as a random name or a joke or something

[Sparrowhawk]

Geralt's fighting style is something I've given a considerable amount of thought to. I've read through the main series of books twice and I've been a fencer for about a year. I've done mostly sport weapons, but some sparring with historical stuff too. I've also got a really awesome fencing instructor with decades of experience in martial arts and various kinds of historical weapons.

A big part of the way Geralt fights would be determined by what kind of swords he uses. If we just go off the game, his steel swords are basically two hand longswords/warswords. Depending on how much the blade tapers and just how heavy the blade is in general, I'd think there'd be no need for one to weigh more than 3-4 lbs. The way he fights I'd expect the balance to be more toward the pommel since it'd let you change direction easier.

The books are another matter. I can't recall a good description of a regular witcher sword that he uses, however when he gets the Dwarven sihil sword from Zoltan in the books, there's a good description. I believe it said the blade was about 35 inches long with a 12 inch grip and, interestingly, no guard... That's a really long grip, even for a two handed sword, but it could have something to do with it being designed for a dwarf to wield (gain length without it being too blade-heavy).

Seems in the books he does a lot of cutting/chopping versus piercing and he seems to make use of incredibly good footwork (retreats, advances, sidesteps, pirouettes, etc), which makes sense given that we already know Witchers are freakishly fast and have amazing reflexes. I would expect a fight against Geralt would involve him avoiding/getting inside your guard almost before you know it and slicing you open/finding a chink in your armor. Another scene that comes to mind is the taking of the bridge on the Yaruga. There's a point where Geralt is backed up against some kind of barrier and starts to worry because he has no space to use his footwork. This makes a lot of sense and indicates that he isn't much of a brute force fighter since he fights without a shield.

Doing any kind of spinning in sword fighting is a very risky, almost flamboyant thing to do. I've sparred with rapiers before and tried it as a goof. Unless you are freakishly fast (like a Witcher) your opponent will simply take advantage of the fact that you are turned around and just stab you in the back. This makes sense. I can say that after a year of fencing, good, controlled, syncopated and fast footwork is incredibly important.

So, gamewise I think it would be really cool to give him a variety of combat animations that make use of his freakish speed and nimble sword work. I'm actually thinking something similar to Assassin's Creed would be fun.

[mastone]

Footwork is important in every form of martial art, be it boxing, kickboxing or swordfighting since you always draw power from the ground ( a good punch for instance starts from the ground, and twisting of the hip)
And I agree with what you say with regards to the size and weight of a blade influencing the speed and force that you can use, the only problem with that I see is transfering that back to the game it would require some complicated rigging to set it up and animation wise it would mean that every sword makes Geralts'stance different, which in real life is probably true, but will take a shitload of resources from the animation team.
It would also mean that you have to switch swords against certain types of enemies I imagine, which was annoying sometimes in the witcher 2(because he had to stand still do his little sword switch animation before you can run again and with those damned beasts in your back it means a short drop and a sudden stop.

I honestly found the fighting in assasins creed to easy ( especially when you understood the countermove)dodging and weaving is something I agree to, but that would mean that animations should be done a lot better ( with regards to anticipation, so you can read the actions of the opponent a lot better) and sidestepping an opponent has to be freakishly difficult because once you sidestep someone it should be over in a single blow