[KnightofPhoenix]

So as has become pseudo-customary, I'm going to share my latest article, entitled: Why as a man, I need Feminism

Now I know some of us clashed on the issue of women in gaming and I did hesitate about sharing this here. But we've comported ourselves very well in my other threads, so let's take a shot at this topic shall we?

Please remain civil as we tear each other apart.

[freakie1one]

KnightofPhoenix said:

Please remain civil as we tear each other apart. ›››

Well, there's no need for me to partake in this tearing apart of people since I have an I Win Button. It was included in my collector's edition of Dragon's Age 2.

[Guy N'wah]

Well said, KnightofPhoenix.

Although I don't live in a place where women need to abide by "rape schedules", it is a place that has an overflowing of machismo, and as you rightly point out, it's just as offensive and unjust for men to be held up to that hyper-masculine standard.

This is a silly example of what I mean. I sing tenor in a choir, and one of my good friends sings bass. He sounds like a tenor, says that he probably could sing tenor, and I agree, he could sing tenor. But he was a Marine (OK, is a Marine: you're a Marine for life), and the Marines he served with didn't have much respect for tenors. ("Tenors look like men but sing like little girls.")

More seriously, I have a wife and two daughters, and I love them all and want the best for them. The best is denied to them in a society that does not take them seriously: where, if I'm with one of them on some kind of business like a college visit, people we encounter (mostly men, but women are conditioned to do this too) will address me and talk past them.

And this is in California, where women's rights are well advanced. The instant you cross the Colorado going east, things get worse.

[Guy N'wah]

slimgrin said:

Come on Guy, don't make this generalization. Being from Montana, I get all sorts of red neck theories and they're just wrong...We love sheep in the north: ›››

Yeah, it's not a fair generalization. Mea culpa. But my point that even places where women's rights are well advanced still have a long way to go remains standing.

[freakie1one]

On a more serious note... I really am not sure on my feelings concerning this issue. They are rather mixed considering all the messed-up situations I've seen in my life. Feminism, by definition, I see as being very important. Men and women both deserve an equal amount of respect and to be treated fairly... but I question whether or not it's in humanity's nature to ever achieve this level of enlightenment. Greed and entitlement seem to always be prevalent throughout history. War, bloodshed, murder, rape, genocide and the list goes on and on... so many issues stem from this. The simple yet not-so-simple solution to most of mankind's problems is this: treat others how you would like to be treated. For all of mankinds supposed advancement we still haven't learned to follow such a simple principle.

[dragonbird]

(Slimgrin's posts removed, as per his request and NOT because there was anything against the rules)

But, back to KoP's comments, yes, this is what feminism SHOULD be about. Respect for people of both sexes as equals, as intelligent, and as human beings. Neither sex has a monopoly on any trait, good or bad.

[Demut]

While I wouldn’t consider myself a feminist I’d call myself a “humanist” (not in the philosophical sense) / “equalist”. Why restrict yourself to a single group of people’s plight ? Feminism, by its very name, focuses on women’s issues even though the end goal is gender equality which you certainly aren’t gonna get if you don’t also address men’s issues. Just seems like a misnomer to me.

[freakie1one]

Demut said:

Feminism, by its very name, focuses on women’s issues even though the end goal is gender equality which you certainly aren’t gonna get if you don’t also address men’s issues. Just seems like a misnomer to me. ›››

Agreed. I find the name odd and it has almost a sexist connotation. Can't focus on only one group if your goal is equality. Putting women above men is no better than the opposite (which I know is NOT the goal of feminism, but it's just what the name suggests). I agree with the principles of feminism, but I wish they'd choose a better word for it.

[Dragon'sDream]

And here we go.

Quote

But I am also a feminist from a male empowerment perspective.

Men are always facing a losing battle during custody trials. Unless the father is overwhelmingly the superior parent, he will always lose out. A man divorces his wife, and despite being a hard worker and good man with absolutely no criminal background, he was only allowed the weekend to see his kid. Two out of seven days, simply because he was the father. His wife later decided to move to Australia, and being the mother, she was allowed to take the child with her. She didn't give him the address or contact number. This man has forever lost his child, and his only crime was being a man.

Women have all the power when it comes to abortion laws. While the right to keep or terminate the child should always be given to the mother, since it is her body, men should have the right to opt out of it as well. If a man informs the mother that he wants nothing to do with the child during the period when it is still possible to terminate the pregnancy, why should he be forced to pay child welfare afterwards? He doesn't want this child, and the mother was informed with enough time to abort it should she feel that she was incapable of supporting it. Why must he suffer? (This argument comes from men's rights groups, not me - I don't necessarily agree with this).

During an emergency, women always take priority over men. Men are expected to sit back and die in silence while the women take all the life boats.


How many feminist protests have there been disputing the above? None, and there probably wont ever be any, because it is in the interest of women not to change them. Even though they know that these laws are unfair, they are unfair in their favor. The only time feminism benefits men's rights is if their agenda happens to overlap. Here in lies the hypocrisy of feminism - you can not achieve equality by addressing the concerns of a single group. Feminism ultimately turns a patriarchal society into a matriarchal one, since the plight of men is largely ignored. It is this inherent hypocrisy that keeps my mother and sister, all of my female friends, and the majority of the female population from identifying themselves as feminists. Go out on the street and ask random women that walk by if they identify themselves as feminists, 9/10 will say no.

This does not mean that I disagree with the points you raised. The opposite actually, I believe that they are serious problems that women should not have to face in our society, and I fight against them whenever I can, often alongside feminists. However, I know for a fact that the majority of these people would abandon my side if the issue was a men's rights one. Not everyone is as educated and open minded as you KoP. I wish every feminist was like you.

I believe in women's rights, homosexual rights, transgender rights, animal rights, disabled rights and everything in between. I try to do the right thing by being there for whoever needs help trying to achieve equality and justice. That's why I refuse to label myself as a feminist, because I am not half blind.

[dragonbird]

Dragon said:

Lots

On custody, and on the lifeboats, I agree with you (although I think that the lifeboats issue is a little trivial. (However, I do agree that common courtesies such as giving up seats, opening doors, holding lifts and so on should be gender-agnostic).

On this...

Quote

Women have all the power when it comes to abortion laws. While the right to keep or terminate the child should always be given to the mother, since it is her body, men should have the right to opt out of it as well. If a man informs the mother that he wants nothing to do with the child during the period when it is still possible to terminate the pregnancy, why should he be forced to pay child welfare afterwards? He doesn't want this child, and the mother was informed with enough time to abort it should she feel that she was incapable of supporting it. Why must he suffer? (This argument comes from men's rights groups, not me).

I disagree. On the assumption that we're limiting this part of the discussion to consensual, legal sex, the fact that a woman gets pregnant is usually the resonsibility of both parties, and the man needs to take ongoing responsibility if the woman chooses, for whatever reason, not to terminate. I realise that there will be some cases where a man is trapped into this (for example if the woman falsely claimed she was on the pill), it's just unfortunate. Short of the man getting a signed statement from the woman accepting full responsibility before they have sex, he should pay.

Regarding the rest of your comments, I partially agree, and this is also the reason why I, despite being a woman who has never accepted a "traditional" role and who believes strongly in gender equality, don't call myself a feminist. The label has too many negative connotations that I don't consider fit my own views, and I refuse point-blank to despise men for not being women.

On the other hand, I'd also like to think that the majority of women who DO call themselves feminists would also find those quotes offensive. All groups have their extremists, and those extreme views don't usually represent the majority.

[Dragon'sDream]

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I disagree. On the assumption that we're limiting this part of the discussion to consensual, legal sex, the fact that a woman gets pregnant is usually the resonsibility of both parties, and the man needs to take ongoing responsibility if the woman chooses, for whatever reason, not to terminate. I realise that there will be some cases where a man is trapped into this (for example if the woman falsely claimed she was on the pill), it's just unfortunate. Short of the man getting a signed statement from the woman accepting full responsibility before they have sex, he should pay.

Not sure how I feel about this myself, which is why I stated that the argument was taken from men's rights (the wikipedia article on the topic, to be more precise). The point I was trying to highlight is that while women do have it worse off in our society (I would say much worse), men also face inequalities, which feminists often disregard. KoP is the only feminist I have ever encountered that brought up the topic of male rape victims and their hardships, for example.

Quote

On the other hand, I'd also like to think that the majority of women who DO call themselves feminists would also find those quotes offensive. All groups have their extremists, and those extreme views don't usually represent the majority.

Of course I don't believe that all female feminists feel like that! I was just showing the polar opposite of KoP. I can see how it can cause misunderstandings though, I'll be removing them.

[Pangaea]

Very much agree with KoP's blog, and some of the counter/side-points of Dragon'sD. Since I got such a massive backlash last time I commented reasonably on this issue, I'll just shut my gub though.

[Wichat]

I left a comment in your blog... I need to find an accurate translation of my opinion before post it here. Sorry. And Thank You.

[Bloth]

Ere, arguing with our Gert other night, thought somebody might be able to tell me what I said wrong. She was reading through one of those womens mags, and complaining about the model lasses being "not real women," well sarky bastard that I am I asks what manner of synthetic they are. So's I get a ten minute lecture on air brushing and body image, unwisely I called Shennanigans on this.

I said that airbrushing and all that crap is just the same as hair extensions and dyes, make-up, jewellry, push up bra's, figure enhancing garments, false nails, high heels and of course plastic surgery. Not content with sticking my foot in my gob, I went ahead and added my boot, saying that most models were genetically superior whether through good breeding or fluke of nature. Their healthy and well proportioned bodies are not their fault and certainly shouldn't diminish them as human beings, to mark them as not human because they are better looking seems petty and vindictive.

I've not had the leg over since, but it did seem a bloody unattractive and frankly insecure standpoint. Am I just not getting it?

[Babli]

I´ll just leave this here with recommendation of her entire channel:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dragon said:

Men are always facing a losing battle during custody trials. Unless the father is overwhelmingly the superior parent, he will always lose out. A man divorces his wife, and despite being a hard worker and good man with absolutely no criminal background, he was only allowed the weekend to see his kid. Two out of seven days, simply because he was the father. His wife later decided to move to Australia, and being the mother, she was allowed to take the child with her. She didn't give him the address or contact number. This man has forever lost his child, and his only crime was being a man.

But see, that's a problem inherent in patriarchy. Because we are fed that women are the natural parents, while men are supposed to be out hunting.
Mostly everyone believes that mothers are closer to their children than dads. Why? No real reason that I know of, I know that when I'm a dad, I'm going to be very attached to my kids. But that's the way we view the world.

As far as I'm concerned, the sex of the parent is irrelevant in these unfortunate custody battles. And I believe feminism can be an answer.

Quote

Women have all the power when it comes to abortion laws. While the right to keep or terminate the child should always be given to the mother, since it is her body, men should have the right to opt out of it as well. If a man informs the mother that he wants nothing to do with the child during the period when it is still possible to terminate the pregnancy, why should he be forced to pay child welfare afterwards? He doesn't want this child, and the mother was informed with enough time to abort it should she feel that she was incapable of supporting it. Why must he suffer? (This argument comes from men's rights groups, not me - I don't necessarily agree with this).

That's a difficult case. But unless the man has a signed contract, there is really not much that can be done. What if he's lying, never told her anything and freaked out at the last second? Or 6 month into the pregnancy?

I see this law as a deterrent, to make people be careful with sex and pregnancy. Yes sometimes a man can be trapped, but I'd think it's an exceptional case. A more likely scenario is have the man screw the woman, then when responsibility time comes, just leaves her and the kid.

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During an emergency, women always take priority over men. Men are expected to sit back and die in silence while the women take all the life boats.

That's also a product of patriarchy. Men are these macho brave creatures, with a noblesse s'oblige attitude. Women and children are weaklings that need to be protected. But a lot of women these days are questioning this. Indeed when watching a movie with a bunch of friends and a similar situation happened, it was the women who were questioning this and it was the men, who want to cling on heroic monopoly, who argued against them.
As far as I am concerned, I'd save the people who are more productive.

Unless it's a case of almost complete wipeout of the human race, in which case I'd prioritize women, for the simple reason that men are more disposable when it comes to reproduction = 1 woman can only have one child per year. A man can have several with several women each year. So logically we can make due with fewer men.

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How many feminist protests have there been disputing the above? None, and there probably wont ever be any, because it is in the interest of women not to change them.

Actually many do and are starting to more and more.
And that's why men should also be involved in this.

Quote

Feminism ultimately turns a patriarchal society into a matriarchal one

You seriously believe that a matriarchy has been established or is being established?
Some feminists do believe that, but most these days don't aspire to that at all.


As for extremism and feminism.
Feminism is not really an ideology, it's a very broad intellectual / social movement concerned with one thing primarily: female emancipation.
So it is only natural that extremists would adopt the label of Feminism, and while what they say is mostly idiotic, I personally find it excusable and understandable considering the male responses to their plight, and after having male dominated literature, sciences, philosophy and religions degrade women for thousands of years on end. It's a natural reaction.

And to be honest, there come times when I start to be tempted to hate my gender. Don't know if you know about the woman cut in half thing on facebook. An add that is now removed, showed a women cut in half (torso + head + arms vs waist + legs), asking us which half we would pick. The comments were disgusting and when I showed this to my friends, their reaction was to start debating on which half they'd want. It pissed me off, it really did.
When I posted my article on facebook, guess what some dumbass said: "that's laughable, the only thing I need is a sandwich." Not sure what pisses me off more, the lack of seriousness or the unoriginal sandwich joke. I can only imagine why some women just get so angry at men, a lot of whom behave like insensitive assholes it must be said.


But Feminism has now evolved, has became broader in scope but more focused in attitude. Just like racist and homophobic feminists are now being shot down, so too are men-hating feminists. It's no longer an acceptable attitude to have and most feminists would absolutely reject mysandry. Very very few call for a matriarchy, what they want is a meritocracy. More and more men are becoming openly feminist. So I'm not an exception, I'm really part of a very big social movement that calls for the same thing.

As to why I choose the label feminist. Because despite its calls for equality, the focus is still emancipating women as they are held in a position that is lower to men. They are a priority. And I identify as a feminist because my goal is to disband patriarchy, and that can only happen with female emancipation, hence the name Feminism. And its female emancipation and the bringing down of patriarchy that is going to improve men's rights as well, that's why I see men rights movement as redundant.

[seamusgod]

pseudo customary?

[Wichat]

Dragon said:

And here we go.

How many feminist protests have there been disputing the above? None, and there probably wont ever be any, because it is in the interest of women not to change them. Even though they know that these laws are unfair, they are unfair in their favor. ›››

I do not know how to live and think in your country. But here I can assure you that most women were demonstrating against such attitudes.
Many women in divorce proceedings, prefer that the custody is shared by 50%. Indeed, some even give up custody if that sons received his pension punctually.
Here, despite protective laws, departments help battered women, special units against gender violence, more than one woman dies a day in the hands of their partner or ex-partner (and we are a relatively small country).
Here, despite the equal rights of men engaged in politics, the women create partnerships of all kinds. The decrees of parity are useless. Since we impose mentality from birth is that the feminine is weak. The masculine strong. Studies and experience are relegated after culture patterns that we see everyday in advertising, media, market.
Today ads become Christmas and new dolls that pee and poo are announced in the arms of angelic little girls. The video games, sports Meccans and tools are in the hands of children announced seasoned and competitive ...
The laws do not change the culture, but the education you receive an infant does. And it is in the hands only of teachers, but of the fathers.
For me feminism is the fight against injustices that are committed by gender.
The laws do not change the culture, but the education you receive an infant does. And it is in the hands only of teachers, but of the fathers.
Giving a word meaning extreme is closing the doors to understanding. Feminism does not attack the man, but to defend the person. The sad thing is that there is always who denigrates the meaning and instead of seeking common mutual agreement only mentions the downside.


OV

Desconozco la forma de vivir y pensar en tu país. Pero aquí puedo asegurarte que la mayoría de mujeres se manifiestan en contra de esas actitudes.
Muchas mujeres en proceso de divorcio, prefieren que la custodia de los hijos sea compartida al 50%. Es más, algunas incluso renunciarían a la custodia si con ello los hijos recibieran puntualmente su pension.
Aquí, a pesar de leyes de protección, departamentos de ayuda para las mujeres maltratadas, unidades especiales contra la violencia sexista, más de una mujer muere al día en manos de su pareja o ex-pareja (y somos un país relativamente pequeño).
Aquí, a pesar de la igualdad de derechos, los hombres se dedican a la politica, la mujeres a crear asociaciones de todo tipo. Los decretos de paridad no sirven para nada. Puesto que la mentalidad que nos imponen desde que nacemos es que lo femenino es débil. Lo masculino fuerte. Los estudios y experiencia quedan relegados tras los patrones de la cultura que encontramos cada día en la publicidad, en los medios, en el mercado.
Hoy vuelven los anuncios de regalos de Navidad y de nuevo muñecas que hacen pis y caca son anunciadas en brazos de angelicales niñitas. Los video juegos, mecanos y herramientas de deporte son anunciados en manos de niños aguerridos y competitivos...
Las leyes no cambian la cultura, sino la educación que recibe un infante sí lo hace. Y ésta no está en manos sólo de los profesores, sino de los padres.
Para mi el feminismo es la lucha contra las injusticias que se cometen por el género.Las leyes no cambian la cultura, sino la educación que recibe un infante sí lo hace. Y ésta no está en manos sólo de los profesores, sino de los padres.
Dar a una palabra un sentido extremo es cerrar las puertas al entendimiento. Feminismo no es atacar al hombre sino defender a la persona. Lo triste es que siempre hay quién denigra el sentido y en lugar de buscar puntos de acuerdo mutuos solo se mencione el lado negativo.

[Bloth]

About time they stopped seperating men and women in sport, lump 'em all together and stop discriminating on anything but physical ability and skill. Watched a few womens footy matches, and they're as good if not better than the mens matches (there's certainly less rolling around on the floor, acting like they've just stepped on a claymore.) As long as we seperate based on gender, then there can be no equality in pay or skill.

[slimgrin]

Babli said:

I´ll just leave this here with recommendation of her entire channel:

›››

I would marry this woman.