[Pangaea]

While reading an article that praised the Kickstarter project Sui Generis, I came over this article over at Forbes (probably the last place on Earth I'd expect decent game journalism). It talks about common tropes in RPG games that he'd like to see changed or evolved.

In short,

• Random barrels filled with gold and other treasures
  
• Dungeons not visisted in eons are lit with never-burn-out torches
  
• Fetch-quests
  
• You are special: the super-hero
  
• Tolkien-esque universe
  
• Limitless supply of magic, making its use less special and 'magical'

Games specifically mentioned that deviates from several of these points are The Witcher (2) and Dark Souls, so a feather in the hat for CDPR there.

Thoughts?

[Aver]

About some of those tropes he is obviously right - torches and barrels. About other he is completely wrong. There is nothing wrong with classic fantasy universe, savior of the world and even with fetch quests if they are done right. If game devs would listen to him we wouldn't have The Witcher universe in the game (because it's too Tolkienish) and Geralt as special hero wouldn't exist.

Overall, it's pointless article. Too much generalization.

[Pangaea]

I don't think the idea about the article is that everything needs to die, and right now (although it can be construed that way), but rather that too many RPG games use these as crutches and don't really do much new. He is praising the Witcher 2 after all, and it has some of these elements.

Overall I think he has some good points in there, and the RPG genre would do well to move a bit more forwards and not just rely on the typical high-fantasy universe with your default superhero saves the world story. Those can be good too, and should still remain, but some deviations here and there would do the genre good. The whole thing has gotten a bit stale.

The Witcher is a good example of moving in the right direction, IMO. It has some of these elements, but it's not that Tolkien-esque (certainly a different interpretation at least), it doesn't have gold in every other barrel, and it doesn't have auto-lighting. Geralt is certainly special, you kind of need that, but he's not your typical superhero.

In any case, I thought it was a decent article that put the focus on some problems with the genre, so wondered what others in here thought about it

[Costin Moroianu]

I think Forbes of all places has more journalistic integrity then IGN, Gamespot, Spike, Gametrailers, PC Gamer, Gamespy and Eurogamer PUT together.

So well done.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The tropes that needs to die is having a primarily reactive PC.
The closest we've gotten to a proactive PC is Michael Thorton. More of that please, except make it even better.

[Aaden]

I agree with 1-4
Number two for me also includes bright nights and caves. Only rarely a RPG dares to put you into complete darkness, even though it has so much potential for dense atmosphere and tension. Take TES for example: Travelling at night would require preparation and you might decide to wait for daybreak instead - as is, it just doesn't matter, it's just a bit darker, but no problem to see and nothing exciting at all.
Number four is not in general a bad thing. A good example is Geralt - he certainly is special and more powerful than many. What really has become too much in recent years are stories that are about you saving the world. I'd like to see more stories that are smaller in scope, less epic. Stories that focus on a single town or area and the going-ons there. Or a more personal one that's just about the hero's task which doesn't change the world. (PnP players will know that a great adventure is not about its scope, but about how well-crafted it is)

Number 5 is nonsense, imo. An universe can be very original while resembling Tolkien in most key features. Classic High Fantasy is still great, if it has more to offer than stereotypes. The problem is a lack of creativity in making the universe unique rather than the type of universe in general.

Number 6 is partly right. I think it's a necessity for gameplay that someone who decides to be a mage/sorcerer is able to use his abilities more often than just ocassionally. But magic has become too common, meaning that there are too many people with magic abilities - being able to wield magic is not something special in most Fantasy universes these days, which takes the mystic and exciting element from magic.

[Pham]

I agree with the first 2 and number 4 to a certain extent.

Fetch quests are the most basic thing you can do in games and its something that has to be done. Of course, you cannot have most of the quests fetching stuff, but a small amount is nothing bad as people are so used to them now. Also they are realistic. People would pay money for you to collect stuff for them as long as it makes sense in the game world (herbs for alchemists for example).

The "You Are Special" trope is also a very peculiar one. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as you are presented as the sole savior and the people know it. For example, in Kingdoms of Amalur you are literally the only one who can change fate, it makes sense from that standpoint that only you can save the world.

Number 5 I disagree with. Tolkien aka high fantasy is the thing most people think of when they hear the term "fantasy". Its also something people have come to expect out of the RPG genre and you cannot just change that. Of course Elves, Orks and Humans does get boring sometimes and I wish we had more original races in games, but there is only so far you can go. For example, Orks are generally regarded as big, ugly and green. So if you create a new race that is big and ugly but a different color, people would just call them "color" Orks. Same with Elves, everything that is beautiful and has pointy ears is an Elf, regardless of how they are actually called.

The sixth point is something I wish would happen less often. Magic is a essential part of most fantasy universes. The reason why it is so widespread is mostly because of gameplay. People like fighting mages, it adds another layer of strategy to the game. If you would have only bosses as mages, the normal grunts would be limited to melee and arches. Not very fun is it?

[Ward Dragon]

I partially agree with the list.

For #1, I like it when I get rewarded for exploration by finding extra gold or items. It has to be done in a reasonable way though. It would be kind of ridiculous if the loot was everywhere But there should be enough that it feels worthwhile to explore.

For #2, I think the magic torches are necessary to some extent. I think there should be some dark places, but I don't want everything to be dark. I don't really like the idea of stumbling through the dark for an entire game, and the lighting usually looks nicer with torches on the walls instead of the player holding a torch. Witcher 2 had a nice solution for this problem by letting Geralt light the torches himself.

For #3, I like some fetch-quests depending upon how they are handled, but in general I think they get abused. I liked the monster hunting in Witcher 1 because I obtained most of the monster parts anyway during normal gameplay so it made sense that I'd try to find people who wanted to buy those items and were willing to pay more than normal for them.

For #4, I think it's necessary for the main character to be special in one way or another, otherwise it probably wouldn't be interesting to play. I don't want a boring mundane story or very limited gameplay due to the character not being special somehow. But I agree that too many games take it to the extreme with the main character saving the world and being known by everyone. The character doesn't have to be the messiah in order for the character to be special and interesting. I wish more games went the route of portraying the character as someone skilled who took advantage of the situation rather than the prophesied hero who was the only one in the entire world capable of completing the quest.

For #5, I like Tolkien but I agree that a lot of games are lazy and just copy/paste what's already been done hundreds of times before. My favorite RPG's are ones that did something different and interesting, even if some of them did use some of Tolkien's general ideas.

For #6, in a videogame setting I think magic is necessary for gameplay purposes. I like playing as a mage and I hate when a game lets me be a mage but then puts severe limits on when magic can be used. I'd rather have the magic be balanced so that the game is enjoyable whether I play as a warrior or a mage. And as far as enemies go, there shouldn't be too many mages but it's necessary to have variety so again there should be a fun balance in terms of types of enemies.

[Sirnaq]

He forgot about ancient evil.

[Geralt_of_bsas]

Almost nothing really needs to die, devs should just consider alternatives or putting focus on other things, but not on killing something.

[Ward Dragon]

Geralt_of_bsas said:

Almost nothing really needs to die, devs should just consider alternatives or putting focus on other things, but not on killing something. ›››

I agree I'm not strictly against any idea on general principle. If it's implemented in a very good way then I'll enjoy it.

[Veleda]

Complaints about tropes need to die. lol

Not really, but I do think it is kind of a faddish activity to engage in. The best stories are the old ones, the classic ones, and the classic game elements the same, because they work and people like them. It's really all in how you present things. The familiar with a twist can be more meaningful than something novel for the sake of novelty. I would really like to see a good Tolkien RPG, for instance- something true to the actual tone and artistic quality of the Silmarillion would be fantastic.

[SystemShock7]

I think it all boils down on the developer's ingenuity of presenting each situation in game to make it more organic, if you will. For example:

#1 Instead of barrels and chests, just have parts of the ground or a half-buried clay vase highlight where you can dig and unearth valuable stuff, not necessarily gold; and/or incorporate activities like hunting or fishing into the game's economy, so the NPC can hunt and sell leather, meat, etc.

#2 Make the NPC carry a torch into a completely dark dungeon, but allow the NPC to drop the lit torch on the floor to fight enemies, or/and have unlit torches/sconces one can light up as one goes along, like Witcher 2 in the mines.

#3 Instead of just "I lost my father's sword in this cave, go get it for me", come up with an original story as to why the NPC needs to go into the cave to fetch something, like Witcher 2 has the Malena or Odrin quests.

#4 Depends on the game's theme, obviously. I guess the author praises Witcher since Geralt isn't really a hero, but just a sword for hire caught in a set of unfavorable circumstances, and his story is neither virtuous nor evil.

#5 Tolkien didn't invent elves, or dwarfs, or talking trees, etc. He just just gets credit for it . But surely a lot of games just stop at those,and don't introduce anything new. Witcher does have its nekkers, and striggas,and drawners, etc, so it adds something different in good quantity.

#6 Maic is one of those things I never use in games. So, if it is completely removed from games, great.

I take it the author hated Skyrim

[Pangaea]

Some of these points are a bit Catch 22. One of the reasons A Song of Ice and Fire is so great is that magic really is rare and kind of under the surface all the time, so it feels truly magical. But how can you do that in a game? I'd really like to play an RPG based on those books, but it won't be easy to make such a game and make it interesting as well. You kind of need magic in these types of games, so it's an either/or situation. It has to be there and be plentiful, or you don't have it at all.

Would like a proper LOTR RPG as well, think it could be fun if done well. There was a LOTR game I played many years ago, but it was basically just a fighting game. Not that much fun. Song of Ice and Fire could run into some of those problems given how the universe is laid out and what happens in it.

You are right, of course, it's not the tropes themselves that are necessarily the problem, but how they are packaged and implemented. If it makes sense in the story, there aren't really any problems. Baldur's Gate use all of these for example, and they're pretty darn good games.

[slimgrin]

Once again, Kain shows he doesn't have the most nuanced take on things. Veleda sums up my view. Running scared from tropes can be just as contrived as embracing them. Besides, Zoltan Chivay sounds Scottish and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Lurtz_Of_Orthanc]

Ah yes, Erik Kain. Been following his blog loyally for a while now and he has some great insights to share. However, he has a disturbingly pervasive obsession with Dark Souls, and tends to glorify it as Best Thing Ever whenever possible. He also has an odd dislike for well-developed protagonists and cutscene conversations, two things The Witcher franchise demonstrates are excellent elements of a truly epic rpg. As for the specific points:

Random barrels filled with gold and other treasures - a staple of the medium, but could use another look.
Dungeons not visisted in eons are lit with never-burn-out torches - good point, and The Witcher's dark caves eschew this.
Fetch-quests - In real life, we quite often have to go grab a crucial item to progress with our daily lives. As long as they stay relevant and interesting, they're fine.
You are special: the super-hero - This sounds more like grumpy rejection of the convention of the protagonist, and is somewhat short-sighted. Geralt is hardly special or superheroic, but his abilities and determination give him the edge to make a difference - yet when faced with an overpowering force, he will be laid low (e.g. Dethmold's magic in the cave).
Tolkien-esque universe - It's popular for a reason. This is an issue with narrow-minded veteran gamers, we forget that what is tired to us is fresh to every new player. There is definitely room to branch out, though.
Limitless supply of magic, making its use less special and 'magical' - totally depends on the rules of the universe, ranging from Game of Thrones chaotic, bloody, rare magic to Harry Potter's wand-waving idiocy.

[arkblazer]

You have amnesia.

Your home village is destroyed.

Teh ebil empire!

[Random drowner]

What is needed is any skilled game/story developer taking his/her/their world and story seriously.
That is all. Someone who takes it seriously and making it consistent does not fill random barrels and creates with gold for no reason.

[Zanderat]

Hmm. Hipster article. You can present the tried and true in new ways (see TW2). THe reason these "tropes" became cliche is because they work and people like them.

[Wut the Melon]

Just because the games industry is stagnating in so many of these aspects I'm going to agree. I really want to see some less 'gamey' games, where everything is the way it is to have a 'fun gameplay experience', and more ambition in creating games that feel 'natural'. TW1 did that fairly well, and TW2 to some extent (though that already felt 'gamey' to me in some aspects)

The ever-nicely lit world is a personal pet peeve, if it never gets dark in your world (Skyrim, TW2) then you might as well leave the day-night cycle out altogether.