[gregski]

Zirenda said:

They have already laid bare the horrors of war, nationalism and racism. Why not do the same for misogyny, which touches half of the world's population every day? ›››

Stopped reading here.

I don't recall any data showing that whole female population is touched by misogyny, I also don't see it in everyday life, not to the extent that you're talking about at least. I thought we got past those dark times, am I missing something?

Creating (or even worse, believing in) such assumptions without any background just to support your thesis is plain wrong.

I agree with opinions that games should be free from politics and political correctness or at least treat these issues in an intelligent way. There are other global problems in this world, like hunger (often leading to death), diseases, lack of water supply, global warming, unemployment, poverty, financial crisis, whole nations being oppressed by dictators etc. So, shall we now have all of these problems dealt with in the Witcher 3 for good measure? Cause I can't see them being more or less important than the issue you brought up.

[Wichat]

Veleda said:

3. Leave your social issues out of video games. ›››

That's hard to do. Someone can discute about slavery, autocracy, respect of minority, religion or Gods/esses. assassinations, .. but when someone write the word "Women vs Men" or extremely "misogyny" EVERYBODY puts his/her hands on the head! And this issue will elicit such a reaction because is there a no-writen-pact of keeping this theme taboo.

speaking in general, it doesn't matter to say Murder, because I will never think that you can be a murder, but if I say misoginy it seems that I am accusing you to be a sort of sexist man... Why? Why this angry reaction in front of a comment with this word, and not a quiet discussion like the ones we have when we're talking about crimes, blood, murders?

I'm not saying that The witcher is or not misoginist, but the fact that misogynist is far more insulting and hurtful than any other immoral or criminal act that may be mentioned in this forum.

[dragonbird]

Wichat said:

I'm not saying that The witcher is or not misoginist, but the fact that misogynist is far more insulting and hurtful than any other immoral or criminal act that may be mentioned in this forum. ›››

Misogyny = the hatred of women. It's an emotive term, especially when used to describe viewpoints that simply oppose our own. Unfortunately, a statement that half the world is touched by misogyny IS a pretty damning comment on men.

So no, the subject isn't taboo, but comments intended to insult the male readers of this forum are just as inappropriate as comments intended to insult the female members.

Misogyny in a video game doesn't directly hurt anyone. I do believe that video games can have a negative effect on society if they're used to reinforce negative views that people may hold about women, such as the view that all women who show cleavage are whores, but I don't see how anyone can reasonably hold that view about TW1 or TW2. Both have a lot of strong women, and both show the negative effects of gender inequality without ramming it down our throats.

On the other hand, I do think that the use of the word "misogyny" is most certainly both hurtful and insulting, and I think that the word is used an awful lot without considering the meaning. My father wasn't a misogynist, neither is my husband, nor were the overwhelming majority of men that I know. Some were, and deserve the title.

[▫ Dona ▫]

The problem with the word "misogyny" is that a lot of people use it to describe any kind of mistreatment of women, and it really downplays the true meaning (which is plain hatred, as Dragonbird explained so nicely). The other problem with discussing gender inequality is that it is something that is so internalised that most people won't even notice they're making hurtful assumptions. So when one side gets offended, the other fails to see what they did wrong and all hell breaks loose. I'll say it again, it's complicated.

Back to the Witcher, I think it handles 'touchy' issues much, much better than your average videogame. It tells a story through character actions and thoughts, without blatantly moralising (the He-Man comparison is cracking me up, it's exactly what I'm talking about). You know, like it usually happens in real life.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think misogyny should be treated as a systemic issue primarily. Men as individuals don't have to outright hate women to support a system that is misogynistic as it denies these females equal rights (both in terms of law and social norms). If anything, most misogynistic people I know adopt a very chivalrous, loving and ultimately patronizing view when defending their ideals on male / female relations. Heck, I know a lot of women who do that as well. I still consider them misogynistic because the crux of their argument ends up being: women are inferior, they just dance around it and come up with nicer words. They may even genuinely believe the crap they're saying and not hate women, but their arguments would still be misogynistic.

So yes I think it is very safe to say that the majority of women still suffer from misogynistic systems and environments (men too, imo, suffer from these beliefs), which most people don't notice because they are so ingrained in it (like a fish wouldn't notice it's in an aquarium).

[Wichat]

KnightofPhoenix said:

I think misogyny should be treated as a systemic issue primarily. Men as individuals don't have to outright hate women to support a system that is misogynistic as it denies these females equal rights (both in terms of law and social norms). If anything, most misogynistic people I know adopt a very chivalrous, loving and ultimately patronizing view when defending their ideals on male / female relations. Heck, I know a lot of women who do that as well. I still consider them misogynistic because the crux of their argument ends up being: women are inferior, they just dance around it and come up with nicer words. They may even genuinely believe the crap they're saying and not hate women, but their arguments would still be misogynistic.

So yes I think it is very safe to say that the majority of women still suffer from misogynistic systems and environments (men too, imo, suffer from these beliefs), which most people don't notice because they are so ingrained in it (like a fish wouldn't notice it's in an aquarium). ›››

What I've tried to say is that the most statements of topics about women are based in misogynist ideologics (e.g. Marthin Luther, Muslim tradition or guideline Vatican), and actually those ideas are part of our culture. How can you fight against the topic trucks for boys and dolls for girls?And it is a topic strongly ingrained even today... wait to see the next commercial advertisments for Christmas...

[Ledgem]

That there are female lead characters and that they're portrayed in a strong light indicates that the games aren't misogynistic. Plenty of non-leading female characters are portrayed as subservient housewives, and prostitution exists within the game, but what would you prefer? Instead of female prostitutes, should the game (or stories) construct a male brothel, while male prostitutes, and men who are subservient to women? Such a scenario might work for an isolated village or a group of people in the game, but if the entire world were based around that then there would be a problem. Fantasy elements aside, the world as it is portrayed isn't terribly different from our present world and its history. That makes it immersive. If you remove the gender roles the immersion factor would be lost. Flip the gender roles entirely, and it would seem as if some other agenda were being pushed, which would also ruin the immersion factor.

In my opinion, the game/story does not comment on the correctness of women or their treatment by men. It brings up present and historical norms; it doesn't seek to reinforce them. I don't necessarily agree with those norms, but the game doesn't try to push it one way or another. For not strongly pushing any particular agenda, I think it's a rather unique gaming experience, and a very strong one at that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Wichat
I agree, misogyny is ingrained in cultures, which is very hard to pinpoint let alone fight. I live in Canada, which is one of the most progressive in that regard, and there are still elements of misogyny left (I still do not understand why someone who wants to buy a car would be remotely interested in seeing a bikini girl next to it, for instance).

[Ledgem]

KnightofPhoenix said:

(I still do not understand why someone who wants to buy a car would be remotely interested in seeing a bikini girl next to it, for instance). ›››

Is that really misogyny? The fact is that many people - both men and women - admire the female body. It's also a fact that "sex sells." In many ways our society does objectify women, but I don't think it's something done for misogynistic purposes. It's because there's a demand for it.

Admittedly this leads into a chicken-and-egg scenario. Which came first - objectifying women, or people's admiration for the female figure?

The physical matters are easy to get caught up in, but I don't think it's misogyny. Truthfully, nothing that we've discussed in this thread really falls under misogyny. That term is too strong. However, as far as female discrimination goes (which I think most of us are using the term "misogyny" for), that has more to do with attitudes and actions. Women not receiving equal pay as a man for doing the same job, or qualified women being passed over for a man in job selection - those are the types of things where discrimination is very real.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ledgem said:

Is that really misogyny? The fact is that many people - both men and women - admire the female body. It's also a fact that "sex sells." In many ways our society does objectify women, but I don't think it's something done for misogynistic purposes. It's because there's a demand for it. ›››

Objectifying women is in and of itself misogynistic. There is a demand for it because that misogyny is deeply in-rooted in our cultures.

It's not an excessively strong word at all. All of it ultimately leads to a belief or sentiment that women are simply inferior to men and not worthy of the same amount of respect as persons, and thus can be objectified and "admired" for physical traits only even when said physical traits are completely irrelevant to the product being sold. That is misogyny, pure and simple. The first step in hating or making a group seem inferior is objectifying and dehumanizing them.

The examples you state of discrimination stem from misogyny.

[Demut]

As others said before me, the games do touch upon this issue. You can say that in your opinion they do so too little but you cannot rightfully claim that they do not do so at all.

Zirenda said:

(the discussion between Geralt and the professor in Blood of Elves about water pollution, using the concept of balance of power in the games hundreds of years before the concept came into being in the real world)

That concept is older than you think and has been addressed pretty much ever since mankind started making an impact on the world.

KnightofPhoenix said:

Objectifying women is in and of itself misogynistic. There is a demand for it because that misogyny is deeply in-rooted in our cultures.

It’s actually in-rooted in our very nature a.k.a. our brains :> Of course that does not mean that we shouldn’t try to combat the objectification of women but understanding that the roots of this lie in our biology can go a long way of avoiding focusing on uninvolved factors.

[Sirnaq]

Welp, im hearing from my mother, grandmother, sisters, female friends etc. that men are pigs my whole life, even though it is me that must go for obligatory military training and it is me that will protect my country and die for it in case of war. Females are pretty misandric themselves but most people ignore it or don't want to see it. And witcher game are way more misandric than misogynistic, think about it, how many men did you killed during the game? And how many women did you killed during the game?

[Veleda]

KnightofPhoenix said:

Objectifying women is in and of itself misogynistic. There is a demand for it because that misogyny is deeply in-rooted in our cultures.

It's not an excessively strong word at all. All of it ultimately leads to a belief or sentiment that women are simply inferior to men and not worthy of the same amount of respect as persons, and thus can be objectified and "admired" for physical traits only even when said physical traits are completely irrelevant to the product being sold. That is misogyny, pure and simple. The first step in hating or making a group seem inferior is objectifying and dehumanizing them.

The examples you state of discrimination stem from misogyny. ›››

And men are objectified as well, certainly by this measure (sex appeal used to promote sales) so how do you quantify which is worse? How about just saying "respect the human person" and leaving it at that?

I do not find the philosophy of dichotomizing the human race into discrete and competing groups at all useful. It distorts history and distorts reality. I think it's ultimately demeaning to women in that it teaches us that we are victims, to imagine grievances and nurse them, and to expect that we should be pandered to by everybody- politicians, and now game developers.

It's fine for games to explore difficult and controversial issues, but there should be no easy answers served up, and still less should a well written story spit out political platitudes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Veleda said:

And men are objectified as well, certainly by this measure (sex appeal used to promote sales) so how do you quantify which is worse? How about just saying "respect the human person" and leaving it at that? ›››

Sure. No one is claiming that men don't suffer from such a system either (I even said so in another post).

But let's not pretend that the oppression and discrimination is equal. Women were consistently marginalized by a system and a culture, more than men. I do not believe they are entirely victims either, I believe women as social actors contributed to its perpetuation.

I personally am not blaming anyone, which is why I said this problem is a systemic one and not one where there is one group which you can pinpoint.

[Ward Dragon]

Sirnaq said:

And witcher game are way more misandric than misogynistic, think about it, how many men do you killed during the game? And how many women you killed during the game? ›››

In the game I killed pretty much everyone who attacked me and I wasn't really paying attention to the break-down of race and gender

As far as main characters who actually have names, I think the game was fairly evenly split with sympathetic and vile characters of both genders. I didn't notice any particular slant in terms of portraying men as evil (or women for that matter). It was much more individualistic than that with each main character having a lot of depth and their own motivations and personalities which encouraged the player to evaluate each character as a separate person.

Veleda said:

And men are objectified as well, certainly by this measure (sex appeal used to promote sales) so how do you quantify which is worse? How about just saying "respect the human person" and leaving it at that?

I do not find the philosophy of dichotomizing the human race into discrete and competing groups at all useful. It distorts history and distorts reality. I think it's ultimately demeaning to women in that it teaches us that we are victims, to imagine grievances and nurse them, and to expect that we should be pandered to by everybody- politicians, and now game developers.

It's fine for games to explore difficult and controversial issues, but there should be no easy answers served up, and still less should a well written story spit out political platitudes. ›››

I agree with this

[Demut]

KnightofPhoenix said:

But let's not pretend that the oppression and discrimination is equal.

I guess that depends on one’s definition of these terms. There is certainly enough male suffering to go around, too, that stems from these gender stereotypes. Think of all the attributes assigned to men which they then have to conform to lest society (including women) disdains them. Just take homosexuals who were and often still are ostracized because they do not meet certain standards of “manliness”.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Demut said:

I guess that depends on one’s definition of these terms. There is certainly enough male suffering to go around, too, that stems from these gender stereotypes. Think of all the attributes assigned to men which they then have to conform to lest society (including women) disdains them. Just take homosexuals who were and often still are ostracized because they do not meet certain standards of “manliness”. ›››

That's homophobia, which is of course a problem not to be neglected.

And yes I agree, men are also victims of such a system. But they did not receive the same level of discrimination, like not being considered a legal person, not being able to vote, not being able to own property or inherit, not being able to have a job...etc which women suffered for centuries just for being women.

And now the issues of equal wage, opportunity to get work, women in politics, sexualization and objectification....etc that are still major problems and that men in general do not suffer from on an equal level. There can be no denying this.

[Demut]

Again, that evaluation depends on one’s assessment of these sufferings. For instance, I’m not one to say that a lack of political participation (mainly affecting women) is worse than being eligible for draft in war times (mainly affecting men). I certainly wouldn’t claim that either gender objectively suffered more from gender stereotypes than the other for I cannot claim to have established an objective, universal measurement of suffering.

[Veleda]

KnightofPhoenix said:

And now the issues of equal wage, opportunity to get work, women in politics, sexualization and objectification....etc that are still major problems and that men in general do not suffer from on an equal level. There can be no denying this. ›››

In fact I do think a lot of those claims are manufactured or based on false corollaries.

To make a comparison, I recently read an article on liberal bias in US academia. It is undeniably present, but to some degree it is due to conservatives for various reasons voluntarily avoiding academia or lying very low if they do work in that realm. In the same way, statistics about equal pay or how many women are in X industry do not take into account voluntary self-selecting, and devalues what women actually choose to do- such as stay home to raise children- if that doesn't conform to the feminists' idea of an egalitarian utopia.

This is why I say and will emphasize again that I don't find this approach at all useful. Rather than see issues for their real complexity and see people as individuals and basically all the same, it creates categories into which unrelated, real or imagined grievances are all stuffed and made to seem greater than they are.

To bring it back on topic, one need only look at the OP to see this in play. People who view the world this way tend only to see things in terms of their own categories. So the OP can play the Witcher games and claim that they don't ever address discrimination against women, just because they don't use the prescribed feminist code words and explicit moralizing. And probably also because the games are unapologetic about heterosexual maleness and don't avoid politically correct taboos.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Veleda said:

To make a comparison, I recently read an article on liberal bias in US academia. It is undeniably present, but to some degree it is due to conservatives for various reasons voluntarily avoiding academia or lying very low if they do work in that realm. In the same way, statistics about equal pay or how many women are in X industry do not take into account voluntary self-selecting, and devalues what women actually choose to do- such as stay home to raise children- if that doesn't conform to the feminists' idea of an egalitarian utopia.

Unequal pay has nothing to do with self-selection and such an issue is present and well documented in North America and Europe. Has nothing to do with a liberal agenda. Same with other statistics, in addition to cases of sexual harassment, difficulty earning promotions, and other impediments that women face in various industries.

Quote

This is why I say and will emphasize again that I don't find this approach at all useful. Rather than see issues for their real complexity and see people as individuals and basically all the same, it creates categories into which unrelated, real or imagined grievances are all stuffed and made to seem greater than they are.

I don't know why you keep telling me that, unless it's not targeted at me. I never divided anything into categories and I think you know me well enough to know that I do not oversimplify issues. It is a complex problem, a systemic one, where no one group or individual or indeed policy is responsible. It's an amalgamation of different factors.

It doesn't make the problem any less existent or any less grave.
It doesn't make the patriarchal system any less unjust and in a lot of cases, illogical.