[Zirenda]

I love The Witcher -games. Both the first and the second. They are the best games I have ever played. What made them special for me wasn't the cool combat, slaying epic monsters and determining the fates of the Northern Kingdoms, but the fact that the games stayed true to the books and dealed with complicated moral and societal issues(racism, enviromental protection, war etc.). Although all kinds of difficult things are dealed with, one thing seems to be alarmingly absent. And as the title shows, in my opinion it is exactly the position of women which should come under closer scrutiny.

Such concerns are especially acute in a game like the Witcher, where women are reduced to either whores or saints, to exaggerate a bit. This in itself is not so problematic - the Witcher games describe a time akin to the Middle Ages, and the weak position of women can be historically justified in that sense. Yet what makes it problematic is that the issue of female emancipation is hardly even mentioned in the games, even though it still is one of the most pressing matters which cause inequality in the world today. There is clearly a strong element of societal criticism in the whole Witcher -franchise, which bases itself on anachronistic ideas scattered around the world (the discussion between Geralt and the professor in Blood of Elves about water pollution, using the concept of balance of power in the games hundreds of years before the concept came into being in the real world), and the natural course would be for the Witcher crew to question also the position of women. They have already laid bare the horrors of war, nationalism and racism. Why not do the same for misogyny, which touches half of the world's population every day?

The lack of any questioning of the position of women in the game gives off a feeling that the status quo is actually something to be taken for granted and not really an issue at all. If one wants to exaggerate, it almost feels as if the game says: "Ok, racism is bad, war is bad, hatred is bad, misogyny...? What misogyny? There really is something like misogyny?"

Note that I am not blaming the game for being a misogynistic one. In a sense the explicitly degraded nature in which the women are portrayed in The Witcher -games might actually be better than the more subtle misogyny of many, many other titles. I simply want to bring the issue up, so that maybe in the Witcher 3 (if it ever is made) or some other game by CD Projekt Red there will be some discussion about it. That would truly be the cherry on top of the cake for me

[thedawner]

Well... here we go again...

[Ward Dragon]

Zirenda said:

Such concerns are especially acute in a game like the Witcher, where women are reduced to either whores or saints, to exaggerate a bit. ›››

Which one is Ves? She's hardly the medieval idea of a good woman, and if you called her a whore then I'll be very upset with you

In all seriousness though, I think the game did address misogyny. There were several scenes where women were abused and the game portrayed it as a very bad thing, similar to how the game treats the effects of racism and war. Plus many of the main characters were strong women, and Geralt himself treats women with respect (sure he flirts a lot, but he doesn't look down upon women or harm them except in self-defense if he gets attacked).

So out of curiosity, what would be your idea of the games addressing misogyny?

[▫ Dona ▫]

thedawner said:

Well... here we go again... ›››

Indeed.

Zirenda, we already had a similar discussion and it... didn't turn out too well, so sorry if you get more "oh nooo" comments.

I'll try to keep it brief. The status of women is mentioned at one point, if you talk to an elf lady in Vergen while on Iorveth's path, she tells you how she's been mistreated by her fellow Scoia'tael squadmates and there are several ways you can resolve this conversation. However, the game doesn't really provide commentary on any of the issues, only presents them and lets the player decide what to think.

How do you think the issue should be treated?

[Bloth]

Spoilers ahoy, can't really answer Ms Zirenda's points without them i'm afraid, i'll hide the following paragraphs if anybodies discomforted by them.





Personally I see Philippas blatant flaunting of her sexuality in front of all and sundry in Vergen (so that every dwarf knows about it and comments upon it) as a sign that she's not only trying to found a state for the Lodge, but also a haven where women are not bound by societal norms.

However the struggle for equal rights in a medieval setting such as the Witcher uses would be utterly jarring to the verisimillitude of the game, it wouldn't ring true. At best it would feel like a simplified dumbed down version of the developers trying to preach and at worst invalidate the entire setting by imposing modern morality on a setting that thrives on personal choice and shades of grey.

There are strong, independant women in the game such as all of the sorceresses, the witch of Lobinden, Mary loiuse La Valette, Malena, the scoiatael warrior women, the madame of Flotsams brothel and Loredo's mother despite her madness. And there are just as many weak and evil men.

As for the status of women in the game, I thought that was one of the key features of Assassins of Kings, that the Lodge are attempting to seize power from Demavend (under what they think is a female leader) and establish a new form of government based on their wishes. It might be subtle and require a little thought to arrive at what message the developers are trying to get across, but far better that than the clumsily inserted blatant social hectoring of say Bioware.

[Zirenda]

▫ Dona ▫ said:

Indeed.

Zirenda, we already had a similar discussion and it... didn't turn out too well, so sorry if you get more "oh nooo" comments.

I'll try to keep it brief. The status of women is mentioned at one point, if you talk to an elf lady in Vergen while on Iorveth's path, she tells you how she's been mistreated by her fellow Scoia'tael squadmates and there are several ways you can resolve this conversation. However, the game doesn't really provide commentary on any of the issues, only presents them and lets the player decide what to think.

How do you think the issue should be treated? ›››

Ok... Didn't know you already had a discussion about this. I did not explore the forums very thoroughly it seems.

About how it should be treated... I don't know, really. I guess the issue is simply left in the shadow of all the other issues. What you said is true that the game does not offer any commentary on any of the issues dealt with, and in my opinion neither should it. It's not a book of moral codes after all. So in no way did I want any kind of didactic monologues or any such clumsy vehicles to be inserted into the game.

Of course I could talk about female representation in the form of female characters, but the discussion would become very, very philosophical very quickly, and it really isn't something fitting to be debated about here. I guess I had simply hoped the issue to be raised more often.

But yeah, I won't treat you guys to any vehement tirades about this matter. As you already had a discussion about this, I think I should be exploring that thread, if it still exists. Thank you for telling me

[▫ Dona ▫]

IA, Bloth. IMO I think there are some subtle, but very solid feminist undertones in the whole Sorceresses vs Kings plotline. That is why I don't like when people dismiss the sorceresses as "vile bitches", when they are just trying to win their war and are no less powerful than the kings they are trying to overthrow.

Zirenda said:

Ok... Didn't know you already had a discussion about this. I did not explore the forums very thoroughly it seems.

Don't worry, it was a while ago, and it started off as a discussion about visual design and expanded from that. So, it's a different topic, but we touched upon the issues of women. Here's the thread, but keep in mind a lot of harsh words flew around, as usually happens with those kinds of discussions.

[MarcAuron]

Zirenda said:

The lack of any questioning of the position of women in the game gives off a feeling that the status quo is actually something to be taken for granted and not really an issue at all. If one wants to exaggerate, it almost feels as if the game says: "Ok, racism is bad, war is bad, hatred is bad, misogyny...? What misogyny? There really is something like misogyny?"

Note that I am not blaming the game for being a misogynistic one. In a sense the explicitly degraded nature in which the women are portrayed in The Witcher -games might actually be better than the more subtle misogyny of many, many other titles. I simply want to bring the issue up, so that maybe in the Witcher 3 (if it ever is made) or some other game by CD Projekt Red there will be some discussion about it. That would truly be the cherry on top of the cake for me ›››

The explicitly degraded nature of women?
The game is missing the explicitly fake political correctness of some games where a character whose pinnacle of intelligence ends with:"I like big boats and I can not lie,"is considered a
good thing to fight misogyny, becuse omg she's a sexually liberated person, yes that's the only thing she is. A woman capable of taking what she needs, which is fine, but that's the only thing that is deffining her,becuse the whole character is built around it in a time span of 10 years.

The thin line between dark fantasy, forum memes, pointless urban references and fake political correctness, lies within the subtlety in which the game address some problems.

The Witchers world so distinct ,well both the books and the games are full of strong and/or influential woman, Saskia,Turoviel, The Lodge, Milva, Triss, Ada, Ciri, Calanthe,Yennefer,Shanni, Rayla..

The themes of the games are addressed when appropriate like with the Reverend speech in the first game, with Geralts ability to help a "omg whore" to find true love, within his absolute respect for Rayla and Ves or Toruviel for example, and yes some men will die, some will live same goes for women, some are rape victims, some are avenged rape victims,some are warriors, the idea that the world is supporting misogyny is hilarious, the fact that some women are prostitutes , some waitresses, some noble, some rich or poor doesn't instantly create a misogynist society , it's just a society where the social status is something to fight for whether man or women, or does misandry exist in this game where every man is a victim of his social status and political influence.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The issue was brought up, except not explicitly in the form of feminism as that would be very anachronistic.

Madame Margot especially is a case where I think misogyny was tackled. Here's a woman, responsible for other women in the brothel, who is constantly mistreated, abused and disrespected by Loredo's men (though apparently not the villagers) alongside her peers, to the point where she collaborates with a terrorist group. She became that depressed and disgusted with how some men treat her. Potentially ends up committing suicide. I think that's a pretty powerful if implicit statement.

The fact that Vess was the only woman in special forces was a point that was brought up several times. And Geralt dueling her in Act 2 and saying she was better than Kaedweni men, with her liking it if Geralt takes her seriously and beats her in lieu of pretending to lose to go easy on a woman, is also a statement.

The whole Lodge of sorceresses as well, plus Saskia.

Like Dona said, TW2 does not make any explicit statements. It rather handles issues in a subtle, meaningful and intelligent way and it's up to us to interpret and draw the message if any.

EDIT: does the issue of women take a backseat when compared to all the power struggles and other wars? Yes, and that's how it should be. The status of women was never really up to debate in our own history until well after the Industrial Revolution (economic and political changes made the explicit debate possible). The universe of the Witcher did not yet reach a similar stage (it's just heading, imo, to the emergence of nation-states), so any explicit feminism would be anachronistic and out of place. What they can do is keep tackling the issue subtly and implicitly like in TW2.

[FoggyFishburne]

This topic in particular, sent the Escapist into a wild fire of chaos and accusations. Men were being called misogynists by the women, women were being called overly sensitive by the men, men agreed with women, women said that people need to chill the fuck out, it's just a game so let's have some fun, etc etc. Awesome thread, it provided both insightful and hilarious posts by both genders

This is an awesome topic, I have nothing against rehashing old threads but considering I've already read the 500+ post on the Escapist, I feel like having another one here is kinda redundant. For me, personally. Good luck though, and I hope that you don't get burned by the lovely ladies around here. Or men for that matter, some take this shit really personally. I wonder why ^^ Alternatively, you could always check that forum out, it's pretty chill. Moderators are little more laid back than they are here. Never thought I'd say that the Escapist mods are chill people!

[Chromie92]

FoggyFishburne said:

I'd say that the Escapist mods are chill people! ›››

I guess you haven't posted on RPG Codex.

[▫ Dona ▫]

Hey, we're chill! :'C

[Sirnaq]

thedawner said:

Well... here we go again... ›››

[jjavier]

come on!
it is medieval fantasy!
To get some degree of verosimilty you need to see big disparity between genders.
As is stated before me, there are really strong female figures.
Really strong female figures don't fit in misogious (Did I just invented a word?) misogynist minds.

This post has been edited by jjavier: 03.10.2012 @ 07:41

[slimgrin]

Zirenda said:

it almost feels as if the game says: "Ok, racism is bad, war is bad, hatred is bad, misogyny...? What misogyny? There really is something like misogyny?"
›››

Woah...the games hardly say anything is bad. What they do say is that the above topics are multifaceted. Also, people citing misogyny habitually miss the point of the stronger females and the roles they play. And finally, it is entirely CDPR's judgment that guides them on what 'real world' topics to tackle. As soon as they feel obligated to balance their approach, they'e got one foot in the grave, creatively speaking.

[Gilrond]

There is some discussion of this topic. For example you can find a reference to sorceresses as "liberated women" (meaning that they are somewhat outside of the regular common society status). Since magic comes with power, it's a natural thing to expect. But I'm not really sure how you want to see that subject addressed in the games. Quests / plot lines related to the subject? I'd think the most interesting way to address it would be to bring women witchers characters in the future games. That was already discussed elsewhere as well.

[Dragon'sDream]

▫ Dona ▫ said:

That is why I don't like when people dismiss the sorceresses as "vile bitches", when they are just trying to win their war and are no less powerful than the kings they are trying to overthrow. ›››

Totally agree...except for Philippa, but we wont get into that.

[Veleda]

1. I disagree with your premise that the Witcher universe portrays women as "only whores or saints." I don't think you were really paying attention.

2. The universe brings in more modern ideas because one of the themes of the world, and of late medieval in general, is the passing away of an old order based on magic while trust is placed in science and modern thinking. But I would say that it is as much a critique of that modern thinking as of what you obviously view as the heinous medieval world (which is, I might add, a bit skewed- women's lot degraded in the early modern period as Europeans re-discovered classical thinking and Roman law).

3. Leave your social issues out of video games. The best stories deal with universal human themes, not this or that political agenda, and they don't tell you what to think about them. Good lord, all we need is for Geralt to turn to the camera and say "and the lesson of today's events is..."

[jjavier]

Veleda said:

3. Leave your social issues out of video games. The best stories deal with universal human themes, not this or that political agenda, and they don't tell you what to think about them. Good lord, all we need is for Geralt to turn to the camera and say "and the lesson of today's events is..." ›››

The idea of Geralt talking to camera at the end of each chapter like HE-MAN cartoon used to do just crack me up.

PS:
Now I can't get HE-MAN theme out of my head.

[StormKorps]

Like because of that. I'm bored to death of politically correctness inside games....if you want a politically correct game OP go to Bioware games. I mean it's still middle-age...womans were not equals to man in those times so why we should change this. It's like making a game based on Roman times and putting womans as legionaires. Complete nonsense