[Norlak]

Reading into the Codex, it seems the writers agreed with you. Going into the 'Reaper War' section, it says that his attempt would've been a millitary blunder if he suceeded.

Still, atleast his original plan wasn't to kill the Councilors. And if he did, replacing the Councilors would be very risky. The Reapers were at Thessia at about the time Udina staged the coup. The heirarchy there wasn't at it's best. Nor were the Turians for that matter. That leaves the Salarians. And by the time a Salarian councilor came to the Citadel, who knows what Udina had in store for him/her.

Udina would have failed anyway. The Citadel task force would have rebelled, and C-Sec isn't going to fight for Udina. If he did it the way he wanted to, there might have been a small chance. But as I've said, BioWare are well aware how stupid his plan was, because he wasn't going to help Earth with the Citadel's fleet + C-Sec. (Atleast I got the intended bit right.)It was stupid. But not unbelievable, there are plenty of stupid acts done by smart people through out history. Most notable, the WW1 'tactics' and Hitler during pre and post WW2.

But how is it that you find it that incredibley stupid? I know it is but to that level?

And again, if you're finding me incredibley annoying/ignorant/retarted/arrogant/fanboyish etc etc... just say the word and I'll move out of this thread. Not here to cause a flame war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Norlak said:

Still, atleast his original plan wasn't to kill the Councilors. And if he did, replacing the Councilors would be very risky. The Reapers were at Thessia at about the time Udina staged the coup. The heirarchy there wasn't at it's best. Nor were the Turians for that matter. That leaves the Salarians. And by the time a Salarian councilor came to the Citadel, who knows what Udina had in store for him/her.

Ok, so let's assume that those polities do not replace the councillors. What was Udina's plan? To order them around? You do realize that the Citadel fleet is made up of ships from those polities right? Why would they ever agree to his authority?
And if indeed their situation is so fucked, why would they care what a human councillor has to say? How would him taking power make them help Earth?

No matter how you want to put it, it's just unbelievably stupid. And if Bioware agrees, then it just likes to write stupid characters for the sake of it, because they are completely unable to write competent and reasonable antagonists. So either they are stupid writers, or bad writers, take your pick.

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But not unbelievable, there are plenty of stupid acts done by smart people through out history. Most notable, the WW1 'tactics' and Hitler during pre and post WW2.

Please do not refer to examples if you do not know them. Whatever idiocy were committed does not come nearly as idiotic as Udina's so called plan.
BTW, there is no such thing as Hitler post WW2.

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And again, if you're finding me incredibley annoying/ignorant/retarted/arrogant/fanboyish etc etc... just say the word and I'll move out of this thread. Not here to cause a flame war.

No, I just find that you do not really know what you are talking about, which you admitted yourself. You know jackshit about politics.

I do not mind people liking or even loving ME3. There are good things in it. But defending certain things that do not make any sense is just a waste of time and an insult to everyone's intelligence, yours included.

It owuld just be easier if you said that Udina is indoctrinated. In whichcase, it owuld make sense. It would still be mediocre writing imo, but at the very least it would have some semblance of coherence.

[Norlak]

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Ok, so let's assume that those polities do not replace the councillors. What was Udina's plan? To order them around? You do realize that the Citadel fleet is made up of ships from those polities right? Why would they ever agree to his authority?
And if indeed their situation is so fucked, why would they care what a human councillor has to say? How would him taking power make them help Earth?

No matter how you want to put it, it's just unbelievably stupid. And if Bioware agrees, then it just likes to write stupid characters for the sake of it, because they are completely unable to write competent and reasonable antagonists. So either they are stupid writers, or bad writers, take your pick.

Well, the Council of course (if the plan went as intended)...until Lt.Bastard Kai-Leng massacred everybody. It was either that or his life.

I'll call the Coup stage meiocre writing, but just the plan, I thought the mission its self was fun.

I'm defending BioWare as writers, not Udina as a character. When it comes to the Coup part of the plot, it's just something to fill in between Thessia. It would have been a complete rush job if they went of to Thessia from Sur'kesh. That being said, there are plenty of ways to do this. But, like good old BioWare, they decide to introduce Kai-Leng...

Now THATS something I'd call stupid. Udina's thing... I'll accept, because he was dumb to begin with. They didn't wave their flag and say "how clever we are, I bet you didn't expect that! Because we here at BioWare know all the in and outs of galactic politics!" They acknowledged the fact that the entire idea wasn't well planned out, and Udina is just a douche.

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Please do not refer to examples if you do not know them. Whatever idiocy were committed does not come nearly as idiotic as Udina's so called plan.
BTW, there is no such thing as Hitler post WW2.

Ironically, 1918 to 1945 is probably the only thing I can come close to 'knowing' anything about politics. As long as it remains within Europe... and Germany (not via TV though lol.)

I like to think that the war ended (at least with Germany) with him deciding to attack two fronts. And then having Goebbels make a lovley "hold the line" speech to all his faithful followers when realising "we're fucked."

Speaking of Hitler, I think Udina thought he was going to pull some Munich Putsch crap, or atleast Kapp (he was, in some way, sucessful.) xD

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No, I just find that you do not really know what you are talking about, which you admitted yourself. You know jackshit about politics.

I do not mind people liking or even loving ME3. There are good things in it. But defending certain things that do not make any sense is just a waste of time and an insult to everyone's intelligence, yours included.

It owuld just be easier if you said that Udina is indoctrinated. In whichcase, it owuld make sense. It would still be mediocre writing imo, but at the very least it would have some semblance of coherence.

Nah, I'd rather have BioWare being stupid and writing a stupid character than resorting to all their mistakes as being 'indoctrination.' Only the "IT" is plausible in that sense. In the codex however, it does say it's a possibility, but I was too busy leaving a red mark on my face from the huge facepalm I did. I imagine it is possible (since the Hanar Ambassador was indoctrinated too,) but I'd rather not use it for everything.

The Journal system is indoctrinated! Autodialogue? Shepard is being indoctrinated by the Reapers and saying things he wouldn't otherwise! No neutral option? INDOCTRINATION!

Now that WOULD be extreme BioWare shield defence action xD

[KnightofPhoenix]

Norlak said:

I'm defending BioWare as writers, not Udina as a character. When it comes to the Coup part of the plot, it's just something to fill in between Thessia. It would have been a complete rush job if they went of to Thessia from Sur'kesh. That being said, there are plenty of ways to do this. But, like good old BioWare, they decide to introduce Kai-Leng...

If the only filler they can make is one of utter stupidity, then they are bad writers.
They could have done ten million others things that make sense and would actually be related to the plot.

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Now THATS something I'd call stupid. Udina's thing... I'll accept, because he was dumb to begin with. They didn't wave their flag and say "how clever we are, I bet you didn't expect that! Because we here at BioWare know all the in and outs of galactic politics!" They acknowledged the fact that the entire idea wasn't well planned out, and Udina is just a douche.

He was never that stupid to begin with. The sad thing is that this probably happened to appease the fans who hated Udina and wanted to kill him while feeling good and without requiring them to use their brain for one second. Udina had his moments of stupidity, but he never appeared to lack political knowledge or common sense, something that is necessary to come up with a plan as idiotic as his.

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Speaking of Hitler, I think Udina thought he was going to pull some Munich Putsch crap, or atleast Kapp (he was, in some way, sucessful.) xD

No just no, it's completely unrelated. Like completely.

[Norlak]

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If the only filler they can make is one of utter stupidity, then they are bad writers.
They could have done ten million others things that make sense and would actually be related to the plot.

Well can't argue there. Because your right.

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He was never that stupid to begin with. The sad thing is that this probably happened to appease the fans who hated Udina and wanted to kill him while feeling good and without requiring them to use their brain for one second. Udina had his moments of stupidity, but he never appeared to lack political knowledge or common sense, something that is necessary to come up with a plan as idiotic as his.

*sigh* We'll just call it indoctrination. Hell, might as well say BioWare are indoctrinated too. Still, convincing me it's stupid to the point of being unbelievable, is like trying to convince Sylvius the Mad that TW2 is an RPG

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No just no, it's completely unrelated. Like completely.

Not completley. While motives and goals (as well as plans) are unrelated. The idea was to take control of something. And that's what Udina attempted.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Norlak said:

*sigh* We'll just call it indoctrination. Hell, might as well say BioWare are indoctrinated too. Still, convincing me it's stupid to the point of being unbelievable, is like trying to convince Sylvius the Mad that TW2 is an RPG

I already stated the example that would fit in our contemporary political system. What Udina did is similar to trying to make a coup on the permanent security council. It just doesn't work that way.

Now had Udina attempted a coup on the Alliance parliament, or what remains of them, then it's a different story.

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Not completley. While motives and goals (as well as plans) are unrelated. The idea was to take control of something. And that's what Udina attempted.

Yea no shit, that's what a coup by definition is. I can compare it to any coup in world history. That still doesn't make it a product of good writing at all, nor does it make it pertinent or remotely similar to any real coup barring superficiality (like wanting to take control of something...).

[Norlak]

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I already stated the example that would fit in our contemporary political system. What Udina did is similar to trying to make a coup on the permanent security council. It just doesn't work that way.

Now had Udina attempted a coup on the Alliance parliament, or what remains of them, then it's a different story.

The Reapers did that for him Arcturus station = BLOWN TO BITS! He is now the most powerful human in the Alliance... but aparantley lost a chromosone somewhere in the middle.

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Yea no shit, that's what a coup by definition is. I can compare it to any coup in world history. That still doesn't make it a product of good writing at all, nor does it make it pertinent or remotely similar to any real coup barring superficiality (like wanting to take control of something...).

Thus comparing it to the Putsch. We were in the area of Hitler, so why no brighten up the conversation a little no?


Anyway. Since you've utterly convinced me of BioWare's incompetence under EA (though I still like ME3.) Know any other devs that are making great RPGs other than CDPR?

It's sad to see one of the good ones go rotten. And Pirhanna Bytes just hide away in their hole and come out every year to announce Risen.

So it's Bethesda, CDPR, and PB now...

BioWare is still floating somewhere... it all depends on the EC and DA3. If the latter is good and the former is terrible, I can forgive them. If the former is good but the latter is terrible... not so much hehe. Still wish EA would allow for an Enhanced Edition for ME3. That game could have used it... so could DA2.

Well, we can agree on one thing though... EA destroys the soul of any dev out there.

[Seboist]

KnightofPhoenix said:

The sad thing is that this probably happened to appease the fans who hated Udina and wanted to kill him while feeling good and without requiring them to use their brain for one second.

That's what it boils down to along with Cerberus and TIM. I wouldn't be surprised if "Marauder Shields" turned out to be the Turian councilor.

[Norlak]

Seboist said:

That's what it boils down to along with Cerberus and TIM. I wouldn't be surprised if "Marauder Shields" turned out to be the Turian councilor. ›››

?

He'd be the main protagonist if it were up to some people! xD

[KnightofPhoenix]

Norlak said:

The Reapers did that for him Arcturus station = BLOWN TO BITS! He is now the most powerful human in the Alliance... but aparantley lost a chromosone somewhere in the middle.

Some members could have been evacuated. That's not a problem. Would have made a lot more sense than this crap.

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Anyway. Since you've utterly convinced me of BioWare's incompetence under EA (though I still like ME3.) Know any other devs that are making great RPGs other than CDPR?

Eidos Montreal.

And I do not agree that it's EA that destroyed Bioware. While their products were better before, they still suffered from similar problems. They just now became overblown.

[Norlak]

KnightofPhoenix said:

Some members could have been evacuated. That's not a problem. Would have made a lot more sense than this crap.




Eidos Montreal.

And I do not agree that it's EA that destroyed Bioware. While their products were better before, they still suffered from similar problems. They just now became overblown. ›››

That's a different arguement altogether. While it is true, BioWare have always suffered from some weird plot turns, twists etc... they have recently become more common due to EA trying to make some sort of BioWare game breeding facility. That's what I think anyway.

And yes... Edios. Forgot about them Loved Deus Ex: Human Revolution... but I fear I will never be sucked into games with characters like BioWare has managed to do

Adam Jensen is a badass and all, but if he died I wouldn't be upset about it

Pleasure being kicked in the arse by you KOP

[KnightofPhoenix]

Norlak said:

Pleasure being kicked in the arse by you KOP ›››

Nah, it really wasn't my intention.

Plus, I've done much more in other discussions (about DA2), whee I ripped people to shreds. This was relatively mild

[Seboist]

Norlak said:

?

He'd be the main protagonist if it were up to some people! xD ›››

Cerberus and TIM not being retarded plot devices would be a step up from what we have now.

[Norlak]

KnightofPhoenix said:

Nah, it really wasn't my intention.

Plus, I've done much more in other discussions (about DA2), whee I ripped people to shreds. This was relatively mild ›››

I'm flattered

Meh! It's a learning experience for me one that says "don't fuck with politics and KOP" xD

[Luc0s]

Seboist said:

Indeed KoP,The council even back in ME1 were one dimensional "angry police chief" caricatures. The Turian councilor in particular was nothing but a clown and verbal punching bag for the player. This all stems from the fact that Bioware wants to metaphorically jack the players off in the most juvenile manner possible. The Alliance committee in the intro of ME3 is the perfect example of this.

Another major problem with Bioware's shitty writing is the repeated use of the comic book derived logic of "lol something must go wrong in order for there to be a story". Cerberus are the most obvious examples of this but it extends far beyond them to include The Allaince,Tali's father, Hahne-Kedar, the Alliance and a whole host of of people and organizations.

Then of course there's "lol indoctrination" aka the insta-villain-o-matic. Why bother trying to come up with decent motivations for antagonists when they can just be "lol indoctrinated"? It's also a "great" way to railroad the story,shit on player choice and cut corners. ›››

I would give this post a +9000, sadly I can only give it a +1. So there ya go, a +1 from me. You have said it perfectly and beautifully. You sum up pretty much everything that it wrong with BioWare's writing in 1 very short post. Bravo.

[General Jarate]

Personally, I thought that ME3 was a great game, but something about the story just wasn't fitting to the previous two games, everything felt more rushed and a bit redundant. You constantly have Hackett saying "Go here, do this. Oh you're back? Great, have 12500 credits and go do this." The gameplay was great though, I enjoyed every second of it. As for the ending, I don't know what to say about it, the reason why is because of the fact that while the ending made it look like Shepard had caused the Relays to blow, it could have all been a metaphorical dream. (Look up the Indoctrination Theory) Another thing I sorta didn't like though is the fact even though I play Paragon, the game pretty much says "Play Paragon, or you're losing your War Assets". I know I just focused on the negatives there, but don't get me wrong Mass Effect, along with The Witcher and The Elder Scrolls, is one of my favorite series of all time.

[gryphonosiris]

Loved the game play and the story, however, ever since 2 I've been put off by how small the enviromental arenas are compared to ME1 with the massive Presidium of the Citadel. It's felt like the series has gotten more and more contained in smaller areas and along more linear paths in said areas. And Example would be Noveria in ME1, when you are actually at peak 17 you even have a hub area there that lets you choose what you encounter and sub missions within the main mission.

I also would have loved an option to tell the Reapers to blow it out of their exhaust port, and to use that ultimate armada of mine to throw Turians, Asari, Geth, Krogan, Batarian and human warships at them to prove that their way is wrong. I built the armada to destroy me some Reapers, and by the Goddess I wish we could put it to use.

[ANordDidIt]

General Jarate said:

Personally, I thought that ME3 was a great game, but something about the story just wasn't fitting to the previous two games, everything felt more rushed and a bit redundant. You constantly have Hackett saying "Go here, do this. Oh you're back? Great, have 12500 credits and go do this." The gameplay was great though, I enjoyed every second of it. As for the ending, I don't know what to say about it, the reason why is because of the fact that while the ending made it look like Shepard had caused the Relays to blow, it could have all been a metaphorical dream. (Look up the Indoctrination Theory) Another thing I sorta didn't like though is the fact even though I play Paragon, the game pretty much says "Play Paragon, or you're losing your War Assets". I know I just focused on the negatives there, but don't get me wrong Mass Effect, along with The Witcher and The Elder Scrolls, is one of my favorite series of all time. ›››

Yup that's what it really boils down to as well. It's shit, and also kind of strange considering that default Shepard is more renegade than paragon.

I guess the only renegade decision that's yielded better results is the genophage cure. If you have Wreave instead of Wrex and didn't save the genophage data from ME2 you can convince Mordin that curing the genophage is wrong and he'll go work on the Crucible instead. He'll even thank you, and you'll get the krogan resources, the turian and resources and the salarian resources.
Thing is, it's a bug apparently because of course we can't have renegades benefiting from something that paragons can't get by just clapping their hands.

Also, to add to the writing on ME3, I think the developers should have taken a risk and done something different. In Retribution TIM considers working with the Alliance and Anderson in order to stop the Reapers. I don't see why Shepard couldn't work both with Cerberus and the Alliance, with both organizations providing different things. As it stands now, it feels that Cerberus is the bigger threat and the Reapers are just somewhere in the background, chilling and ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.

[Seboist]

You just can't stress enough that the crucible plot is one of the worst ones in gaming. The Triforce in freaking Zelda has a better setup.

Triforce: Established early on as this magical object created by the goddesses that can grant it's user any wish of his.

VS

Crucible: A device that suddenly shows up in the third of a game trilogy under the noses of our heroes that has never been assembled and nobody knows what it does or if it'll even work but let's pour all our valuables resources into it anyway!

Given such a setup Shepard would have been better off looking for the Triforce than entertaining the idea of the crucible for even a second.

[KnightofPhoenix]

For me that's not the worse part when it comes to defeating the reapers. The worse part is how stupid the final plan was and how stupid the Reapers were.