[secondchildren]

Not_Slimgrin said:

Let's just remember one important fact: Bioware and its vocal fan base. I think we all know this tale: the developer who tries to please everyone, so they end up shoehorning politically correct bits into their games. It all comes across as superficial, forced. Sorry, but in my humble opinion CDPR's vision is priority, at the expense of everything else. ›››

And in fact, Dona was saying exaclty the opposite: do not appeal us with shitty-pinky things (becoz you think that women love pink), just consider us.

[227]

So... if there's an awesome mod or website or basically anything creative happening here, there's usually a woman behind it. Are there more women around here than men for that to be a reality, or do we just have all of the creative ones?

Not a group to be ignored, at any rate. You take the women out of the equation and the entire fandom basically shrivels and dies.

17+ is such a non-specific criteria that it allows for both younger gamers and older gamers, like puzzles that say "for ages 12-90!". Why not just ignore adding that "male" part altogether if you're already being totally non-specific like that? It makes no sense to draw the line there, honestly.

[triss000]

And would anyone be complaining if it weren't for the '17 yr old male' comment from the RED's? Let's look at what they produce and judge from that, not some sales strategy statistic.

[▫ Dona ▫]

Not_Slimgrin said:

And would anyone be complaining if it weren't for the '17 yr old male' comment from the RED's? Let's look at what they produce and judge from that, not some sales strategy statistic. ›››

I've discussed the issue of portrayal of women in TW2 with some friends since the game's release and began working on an article regarding just that two or so months ago. You would've heard it from me, at least. TW2 marketing campaign was clearly aimed at men, we didn't need the PDF to see that.

[Corylea]

Not_Slimgrin said:

Let's just remember one important fact: Bioware and its vocal fan base. I think we all know this tale: the developer who tries to please everyone, so they end up shoehorning politically correct bits into their games. It all comes across as superficial, forced. Sorry, but in my humble opinion CDPR's vision is priority, at the expense of everything else. ›››

We're not asking for THE GAME to be changed. We're asking that CDPR recognize what is already true: that women play their games.

Awhile back, I asked some of the Polish people who post on the International side of the forum if women were as active on the Polish side of the forum as they are on the International side. The answer was something like, "I think we have all of two active female fans on the Polish side. But we love the ones we have!" So I think maybe the Polish sales are overwhelmingly to men ... and CDPR is erroneously generalizing from that to their world-wide sales.

[jjavier]

People, don't get to upset about this presentation.

Is just a presentation for salesmen and marketing people.
It must fit in theirs idea of how a sale is done.

This is the material to sale the game to a salesman as his next job.
If a superficial look to the game tells them its target demographics is 17+ male gamers there is no point to make a presentation telling them otherwise.

[triss000]

D o n a said:

I've discussed the issue of portrayal of women in TW2 with some friends since the game's release and began working on an article regarding just that two or so months ago. You would've heard it from me, at least. TW2 marketing campaign was clearly aimed at men, we didn't need the PDF to see that. ›››

So what do you and your friends think of their portrayal of women in the game? I can tell you what many people on this side of the pond think: they are sexist and should be more balanced in their representations of sexuality and gender differences.

Is that what you want?

[Dragon'sDream]

Not_Slimgrin said:

they are sexist and should be more balanced in their representations of sexuality and gender differences. ›››

I am sorry, but I do not agree with that at all. In TW1 maybe, but not in TW2.

[Gibb_Geralt]

D o n a said:

I've discussed the issue of portrayal of women in TW2 with some friends since the game's release and began working on an article regarding just that two or so months ago. You would've heard it from me, at least. TW2 marketing campaign was clearly aimed at men, we didn't need the PDF to see that. ›››

Well i do hope you were discussing how powerful and independent the women in TW2 are. Because TW2 has a far better representation of women than any Bioware game. Shit, the sorceresses outwitted and manipulated KINGS to their own ends, and Saskia was a damn legend of Vergen.

I just cannot stand the stigma that TW2 has gotten in relation to women. It's simply not true. Would you rather the whores to be discarded from the game, and the Dwarve's foul mouths to be silenced? When devs start to try and be everything to everyone, the game loses realism and has superficial and forced elements.

As for the marketing, be realistic. Please. Even Bioware, the "revolutionary" company in everyone's rights, markets to male gamers. Always have. Only now with that one femshep trailer did they somewhat stray from the formula, but EVERYTHING else was marketed to male gamers. That's just the reality of business. That's how it has to be.

[Guy N'wah]

jjavier said:

People, don't get to upset about this presentation.

Is just a presentation for salesmen and marketing people.
It must fit in theirs idea of how a sale is done.

This is the material to sale the game to a salesman as his next job.
If a superficial look to the game tells them its target demographics is 17+ male gamers there is no point to make a presentation telling them otherwise. ›››

Either the Polish "17+ male" crowd is more sophisticated than the one this side of the Pond, or they maybe aimed high and hit a market they didn't think they were after.

The "17+ male" crowd is pretty well known to marketers here, because that's traditionally the one that consumes lots of fast food and cheap beer. And they advertise accordingly. (You can look up the latest "Carl's Jr." hamburger commercial with Kate Upton for yourself.)

I think CDPR did think they were making a game for the "17+ male" crowd. Somewhere in doing so, they made it more artistic and more thoughtful than the usual trash sold into that market, and they "hit for six" (as the cricketers say) with a whole different audience.

If you're going to make that kind of mistake, keep making more of them, please

[▫ Dona ▫]

Gibb_Geralt said:

Well i do hope you were discussing how powerful and independent the women in TW2 are. Because TW2 has a far better representation of women than any Bioware game. Shit, the sorceresses outwitted and manipulated KINGS to their own ends, and Saskia was a damn legend of Vergen.

It was about VISUAL representation of lead females, not the writing. They are all excellently written characters, nobody can deny that.

Gibb_Geralt said:

As for the marketing, be realistic. Please. Even Bioware, the "revolutionary" company in everyone's rights, markets to male gamers. Always have. Only now with that one femshep trailer did they somewhat stray from the formula, but EVERYTHING else was marketed to male gamers. That's just the reality of business. That's how it has to be. ›››

No, no, no, no. The 'reality' is that women are constantly being objectified because they have been taught by society from the beginning that their looks is all they are worth for. Which is, mind you, bullshit. As long as we are being conditioned this way, marketing companies won't even try to change. It doesn't HAVE to be that way and more and more people are starting to realise how bad the situation is. The Femshep trailer got a lot of praise because it's finally been acknowledged that female protagonist exists as an option in that game (not to mention, a lot of fans consider her a better written character than her male counterpart). Companies who continue with "only men buy games" mindset are going to lose in the long run.

Guy N said:

I think CDPR did think they were making a game for the "17+ male" crowd. Somewhere in doing so, they made it more artistic and more thoughtful than the usual trash sold into that market, and they "hit for six" (as the cricketers say) with a whole different audience.

Their Xbox marketing is a lot better, imo, as they focused on action and Letho (most badass antagonist ever, amirite?) instead of Triss' naked but - a much better representation of the game!

[triss000]

Dona, the women in TW2 are dressed accordingly: Triss is now a tomboy/practical, the rest are vain and aware of their looks, and as for Saskia...well. Given what we know, does she really need full plate armor up to her neck?

[jjavier]

Guy N said:

The "17+ male" crowd is pretty well known to marketers here, because that's traditionally the one that consumes lots of fast food and cheap beer. And they advertise accordingly. ›››

If marketers can make 17+ males perceive the game as cheap beer until the moment they buy the game, then marketers have achieve their goal.
If TW2 is the cheapest of the beers or the finest trappist beer isn't a big deal to them. They care how TW2 looks like for someone who doesn't know the game.

Guy N said:

(You can look up the latest "Carl's Jr." hamburger commercial with Kate Upton for yourself.) ›››

This commercial?
Wow! you are right! There is a hamburger in it!

[Gibb_Geralt]

DONA, if you have read any lore regarding TW, you'd know that sorceresses are vain and magically enhance themselves to look as good as possible. They like to tempt men, but know that those men would never dream of hitting on them, lest they be turned into a toad. Prostitutes, well, are prostitutes. They have to tempt men to earn a living.

It's all in the lore. This isn't some Mass Effect 2 Miranda shit, this is lore that has preceded the games. I would frankly be offended if CDPR went against previously established lore just because some women want video gaming to be a pseudo-political movement.

[▫ Dona ▫]

Gibb_Geralt said:

DONA, if you have read any lore regarding TW, you'd know that sorceresses are vain and magically enhance themselves to look as good as possible. They like to tempt men, but know that those men would never dream of hitting on them, lest they be turned into a toad. Prostitutes, well, are prostitutes. They have to tempt men to earn a living.

It's all in the lore. This isn't some Mass Effect 2 Miranda shit, this is lore that has preceded the games. I would frankly be offended if CDPR went against previously established lore just because some women want video gaming to be a pseudo-political movement. ›››

GIBB_GERALT, if you read my newly posted thread you would have known I exclude Sorceresses from this. I know who they are and what they do and I accept it.

[triss000]

This discussion needs to move to Dona's thread.

[dragonbird]

To a certain extent, I think we're over-reacting. The PP gives the principle demographic and yes, that's probably male. The fact that it says only "17+" and doesn't give the actual age breakdown simply means that CDPR isn't releasing all of its confidential data in this presentation, just some of it.

Not_Slimgrin said:

Ladies...this is just a reality, not a snub to the female fans of The Witcher, whom we all adore. I can all but guarantee many more men then women bought TW2.

You're probably correct, but no, you're not in any position to guarantee anything. The only people who can do that are those who have access to the data. Anything else is just extrapolation from your own personal experience.

Not_Slimgrin said:

I'm not about to embark on a crusade here, *BUT* how in the hell would you market TW2 to women? Remember, this is coming from the guy who plays female in all his RPG's when given the chance.- male badass protagonist.- lotsa sex with pretty ladies, some of them whores.- set in the 1200's when women were met with suspicion not respect. I know it's fiction, but the influence of historical reality weighs heavily on the flavor of this game.* All this said, I respect the women on this site, and of course the people Cory listed. My experience in both Witcher games would have been lacking without their contributions.

Women like badass male protagonists. Look at TV, Movies, novels. And if you're a straight woman playing a game with a good male protagonist you get to see him ALL OF THE TIME, not just in a couple of cut-scenes. And if you're looking at fantasy (the personal kind, not the elves and magic kind), males may see themselves as the protagonist, females see themselves as being WITH the protagonist.

Not_Slimgrin said:

Let's just remember one important fact: Bioware and its vocal fan base. I think we all know this tale: the developer who tries to please everyone, so they end up shoehorning politically correct bits into their games. It all comes across as superficial, forced. Sorry, but in my humble opinion CDPR's vision is priority, at the expense of everything else.

As others have said, this isn't about changing the game itself to pander to the tastes of any one group of fans, it's about marketing. The game's just fine the way it is.

227 said:

So... if there's an awesome mod or website or basically anything creative happening here, there's usually a woman behind it. Are there more women around here than men for that to be a reality, or do we just have all of the creative ones?Not a group to be ignored, at any rate. You take the women out of the equation and the entire fandom basically shrivels and dies.17+ is such a non-specific criteria that it allows for both younger gamers and older gamers, like puzzles that say "for ages 12-90!". Why not just ignore adding that "male" part altogether if you're already being totally non-specific like that? It makes no sense to draw the line there, honestly.

I agree. The bullet-point is deliberately vague because it doesn't breakdown the age further, so it would have been better to avoid the "male" tag too. And it would have avoided this little firestorm

Not_Slimgrin said:

And would anyone be complaining if it weren't for the '17 yr old male' comment from the RED's? Let's look at what they produce and judge from that, not some sales strategy statistic.

Agreed. But call it "feedback" instead. Just driving home the fact that we're here CDPR - please make sure you don't ignore us.

jjavier said:

People, don't get to upset about this presentation.Is just a presentation for salesmen and marketing people.It must fit in theirs idea of how a sale is done.This is the material to sale the game to a salesman as his next job.If a superficial look to the game tells them its target demographics is 17+ male gamers there is no point to make a presentation telling them otherwise.

As above. But I hope that they're giving more info than that behind the scenes - not just on the gender breakdown, but also on the age breakdown.

Quite frankly, I'd have thought that the information was necessary. "Male gamers aged 17+" is probably a saturated market, so you should be looking at the breakdown to see if there are demographics who are interested, but not saturated, and target your marketing at them too. Which may be "males aged 45+" or "females aged 20-40", I don't know.

Again, it can't be emphasised enough - this is about marketing, not about changing the game itself to pander to any one demographic.

Not_Slimgrin said:

So what do you and your friends think of their portrayal of women in the game? I can tell you what many people on this side of the pond think: they are sexist and should be more balanced in their representations of sexuality and gender differences. Is that what you want?

I think that some people just look for things to get upset about (and, doing my own bit of stereotyping here, maybe it IS more common on your side of the pond). Since they're determined to find something offensive, if they don't find something big, they get upset about trivia, whether it's the amount of cleavage Saskia is showing, or the fact that the Chinese in DX3 miss out the wrong words when speaking imperfect English (yes, I read that on one blog).

There's nothing in TW2 that I find remotely offensive to women. The "sex card" aspect in TW1 was mildly demeaning, but not much. It is not demeaning to depict women as sex workers in a game world where it was one of the few available "professions", whether it's 13th Century pseudo-Europe or 21st Century pseudo-China.

Gibb_Geralt said:

Well i do hope you were discussing how powerful and independent the women in TW2 are. Because TW2 has a far better representation of women than any Bioware game. Shit, the sorceresses outwitted and manipulated KINGS to their own ends, and Saskia was a damn legend of Vergen.

Agreed.

Quote

I just cannot stand the stigma that TW2 has gotten in relation to women. It's simply not true. Would you rather the whores to be discarded from the game, and the Dwarve's foul mouths to be silenced? When devs start to try and be everything to everyone, the game loses realism and has superficial and forced elements.

Also agreed. See points above.

Quote

As for the marketing, be realistic. Please. Even Bioware, the "revolutionary" company in everyone's rights, markets to male gamers. Always have. Only now with that one femshep trailer did they somewhat stray from the formula, but EVERYTHING else was marketed to male gamers. That's just the reality of business. That's how it has to be.

Agreed up to the final two sentences. A business that looks only to their principle demographic, especially if that's a saturated market, is blinding themselves to the possibility of market growth by ignoring the other demographics. Fact: Women play games now. Probable fact, which should be checkable by CDPR's marketing people: Women like badass heroes and like TW2. Business Opportunity: Exploit this market by targeting some of the PR at them. Let's see some sexy Geralty/Iorveth promos

And, once more for good measure, none of this is a suggestion that they change the game itself and give us a Geraldine lead, or the opportunity to furnish his room at the inn with pretty pink flounced fabrics, or reduce the number of sexual conquests he can make. It's about marketing what they're already doing.

[eskiMoe]

D o n a said:

Because it was marketed to men and females are still shy about getting involved in the gaming community because of the treatment they receive (not in this particular community, but globally). ›››

Better get used to it.

Until action/RPG games become more popular among women than men (probably around the time when hell freezes over) the games will be marketed for men. And I don't see why you ladies are so offended by this. Generally women aren't interested in said games. They tend to lean towards casual games (or no games at all) frankly.

AKA:

[dragonbird]

eskiMoe said:

Better get used to it.

Until action/RPG games become more popular among women than men (probably around the time when hell freezes over) the games will be marketed for men. And I don't see why you ladies are so offended by this. Generally women aren't interested in said games. They tend to lean towards casual games (or no games at all) frankly.

AKA:
(Nasty images deleted) ›››

Ouch, eskiMoe, that hurt. NOW I'm offended. You were joking, I hope? Of course, it is probably partially true, basing on the "What I'm Playing Now" posts I see from Facebook friends before the filters kick in.

The important thing that all a lot of some men often seem to forget is that we're not all the same, just like all male gamers aren't 18-year-olds with poor social skills who hide in basements and just come out to troll Bioware forums occasionally.

[Corylea]

eskiMoe said:

Better get used to it.

Until action/RPG games become more popular among women than men (probably around the time when hell freezes over) the games will be marketed for men. And I don't see why you ladies are so offended by this. Generally women aren't interested in said games. They tend to lean towards casual games (or no games at all) frankly. ›››

This is either a REALLY bad joke, or you've taken leave of your senses.

You want to tell me to my face that women aren't interested in The Witcher? I played it before YOU did. I probably played it half a dozen times before you did. But I don't exist, huh?

If what you said is NOT a joke, then it's really offensive. I am not kidding.