[Vandergrift]

@Gregg

Do you really think that CEO of EA or UBIsoft (for example) is capable of understanding such strategy?

[▫ Dona ▫]

grregg said:

Memo to CDR. Be aware that making your marketing strategy public is equivalent to painting a bulls-eye on your back. If you would like to share your marketing wisdom with someone, sit down for a bit and wait until you come back to your senses. ›››

Because reading a tutorial on how to paint will instantly make you the next Da Vinci! Nah, reality doesn't work that way.

[grregg]

Vandergrift said:

@Gregg

Do you really think that CEO of EA or UBIsoft (for example) is capable of understanding such strategy? ›››

I'm pretty sure they are. They might not want to implement it, or they might not be able to implement it, companies have a great deal of institutional momentum, but as far as understanding goes, absolutely.

But just take a look at this forum, CDR already managed to upset some of its most dedicated and vocal supporters. Small scale at the moment, but was it worth it?

[Guy N'wah]

Oh, they fully understand. Nothing in CDPR's strategy that isn't well-known best practices (well, except forgetting a big chunk of your actual market, but that's a well-known blunder, too).

What they won't, and due to the position of their institutions can't, do is follow it. It's tough to do targeted games when you're the biggest monolith on the planet. You lose the interest in paying attention to small proposals that don't make noticeable contributions to a very large bottom line.

Big consolidated publishers, record companies, movie studios, and their kin have the same incapacity. If it's not the next Big Score, it's not going to draw the attention it needs to get made.

[▫ Dona ▫]

grregg said:

But just take a look at this forum, CDR already managed to upset some of its most dedicated and vocal supporters. Small scale at the moment, but was it worth it?

Absolutely. I assume you are talking about the bit where a few of us were upset about their presentation saying they want to market to men - at the end of the day, it's marketing. It was one short sentence in a pile of pages that explicitly said: we listen to our fans, we learn from our mistakes. So now we were able to tell them our opinion on it. Their games haven't suddenly become awful because of that. I still support them 100%, because their product is good, because their attitude can set examples for many much larger, much older publishers.

[Kindo]

A really cool presentation, full of interesting information and good points made. Kudos for sharing their wisdom with other game developers (and we, the nerdy and interested players), and also strikes a blow against the tired argument that PC is a hopeless platform to develop games for. Goddess, though... what a horribly unfortunate mistake by CDPR to underline the gender of their target audience. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, simply omitting the word would have been enough to avoid this kind of heated reaction from the community, which I hope is not only shared among women, but thinking men, as well. I don't believe that CDPR somehow turns a blind eye to their female fans, or are backwards and sexist enough to think "there are no women on the internet" or some such nonsense. People are, generally, not that stupid these days - those who are might be unusually vocal, however, because they tend to lash out when their sense of reality is being questioned or when their imagined "position" in society is being "challenged." Either way, I don't think CDPR are this oblivious and/or stupid; the company itself has a notably large number of women in their ranks, and due to the much tighter connection and more open communication they have with their fan-base, they undoubtedly notice we are not all men. Only recently, Dona was herself recognised, publicly, in an interview what was made official for all to read. No, this is most likely a case of typing a bit too eagerly, or otherwise not stopping to think things through - just for a second - before clicking "Save as..." on that project. An apology would be nice, though, because whether they are aware of it or not, it definitely ran a risk of coming across as offensive to at least a sizeable chunk of their paying customers; and evidently, it did.

What's most troubling to me, however, is what you see in the discussion happening afterwards. We have those of us who feel offended by this, of course. We feel this way whether we believe it was an honest mistake or not; and rightfully so, I might add. The worst thing that could happen is if this was met with utter silence - debate and open discourse are cornerstones in human society, and should never ever be discouraged or otherwise prevented, even if it starts out as commentary on a simple four-letter word, as it did in this case. The worries start popping up when you notice the defenders and the apologists who are under the impression that the statement made is true and logical, that it's a fact that the vast majority of people who play this kind of game (or games, period) come equipped with a willy between their legs, even if countless sources say otherwise.

An interesting addendum here is that you normally never require this much backing and this many cited sources to prove a fact, otherwise, unless the fact in question somehow involves the female gender or in one way or another "threatens" the standing of men. Even if these unfairly biased criteria are eventually met, you'd be surprised to see just how many people still refuse to accept the truth before their eyes, and instead they cling for dear life to a lie that is supposed to keep the male gender feeling superior and to allow it to remain more important in all parts of society, not only when it comes to gaming and other "manly" ventures. "Territorial pissings" are alive and well in the year 2012.

[Bloth]

It'd be a damn poorer place without the work of the ladies around here, that's a bloody fact.

[triss000]

Blothulfur said:

It'd be a damn poorer place without the work of the ladies around here, that's a bloody fact. ›››

No one is denying that. For chrissake I'm beginning to think we men have to build an altar and sacrifice virgins in their name before they realize we do appreciate them.

[▫ Dona ▫]

Not_Slimgrin said:

>sacrifice virgins
>we do appreciate them. ›››

ಠ_ಠ

[gregski]

This thread starts to remind me of a one back on GOG forums when CDPR decided to remove a texture of a cloth in a brothel that slightly resembled Muslim symbolism. CDPR did that in good will and put that information in the patch notes. While the discussion started in a civil manner it all quickly went downhill as people jumped to more political, religious and worldview areas and the topic became discriminative and inflammatory.

I can see the same potential creeping underneath the surface here and in the other topic about sex/gender representation in games.

But hopefully it won't turn out that way and I will repeat myself - narrowing the target group for a game or any other product to a certain demographic is done on a daily basis by millions of companies, big or small, around the world. Assuming you want to market and sell your product MORE in a certain group is not disrespectful, it is not discriminative. It is a way the business is trying to allocate its resources where it thinks they will bring the most return, nothing else.

[triss000]

gregski said:

This thread starts to remind me of a one back on GOG forums when CDPR decided to remove a texture of a cloth in a brothel that slightly resembled Muslim symbolism. CDPR did that in good will and put that information in the patch notes. While the discussion started in a civil manner it all quickly went downhill as people jumped to more political, religious and worldview areas and the topic became discriminative and inflammatory.

I can see the same potential creeping underneath the surface here and in the other topic about sex/gender representation in games.

But hopefully it won't turn out that way and I will repeat myself - narrowing the target group for a game or any other product to a certain demographic is done on a daily basis by millions of companies, big or small, around the world. Assuming you want to market and sell your product MORE in a certain group is not disrespectful, it is not discriminative. It is a way the business is trying to allocate its resources where it thinks they will bring the most return, nothing else. ›››

Enough with all this common sense and reason, Gregski.

BTW, I hated that they removed the 'Islamic' themed rug. Shows where I stand on artistic freedom and political correctness.

[gregski]

Not_Slimgrin said:

Enough with all this common sense and reason, Gregski. ›››

Why?

[triss000]

gregski said:

Why? ›››

Sorry, that was sarcasm on my part. The more common sense the better.

[gregski]

Not_Slimgrin said:

Sorry, that was sarcasm on my part. ›››

Ah, ok, NP

[DelightfulMcCoy]

How nice to be compared to religious fanatics. But I guess you're right, gregsky, we secretly want to convert you guys to be women, because only women can properly play and truly enjoy a game.
In case it didn't come across, this was a joke (with a grain of truth).

And since you repeated it several times in this topic, I really don't buy that any company would want to intentionally not make sales to a specific demographic, that's very unlikely. And they just need to not exclude us to make us pretty happy. Some more equality would still be fine, but I am being somehow content with baby steps, I'm aware that big changes cannot be rushed.

I'm sorry that not a lot of women in your country play games, but I can't help but think that they are not exactly to blame for more rigid gender roles still being in place and often happily "encouraged" by the male members of the society. Which in turn might make the guys at CDPR think that this is the norm... it's a vicious cycle, really. It's up to everyone to initiate changes and tap that huge potential that is female gamers. Why wouldn't we enjoy playing games? It's a lot condescending to think to keep us away from this kind of entertainment.

[triss000]

As Eskimoe pointed out, women are playing games. The majority may not be playing RPG's, but making digital sammiches or doing dance class in front of the Wii.

[DelightfulMcCoy]

Not_Slimgrin said:

The majority may not be playing RPG's, but making digital sammiches or doing dance class in front of the Wii.

I am still entertaining the tiniest bit of hope that he started a social study about female aggression potential or something with that posting.
Anyway, that view is sooo skewed. And I aim to prove that... gonna open a new topic now...

[gregski]

DelightfulMcCoy said:

And since you repeated it several times in this topic, I really don't buy that any company would want to intentionally not make sales to a specific demographic, that's very unlikely. And they just need to not exclude us to make us pretty happy. Some more equality would still be fine, but I am being somehow content with baby steps, I'm aware that big changes cannot be rushed. ›››

I'm sorry if I am not articulating this pretty clearly, some things are just obvious to me because I do them at my daily job.

Creating a marketing strategy/plan is not about including/excluding any group or demographic. This is business, it's not that emotional. It's more about DESCRIBING the group YOU THINK or YOU MANAGED TO PROVE(by doing marketing research) to be MOST LIKELY to buy your product and so concentrating your efforts, your advertising message and money on that group. Of course you are more than happy if people outside of this group buy your products, but the plan you build has to be specific and detailed, not "Let's target everyone". So, they want to sell to everyone but they have to allocate their resources to a group that is most likely to purchase the product.

Sorry for capsing and being too obvious, it just bothers me why people keep talking about this whole thing being offensive or discriminative. I just can't picture CDPR sitting around in their conference room saying "Ok, we don't care about women buying our game, let's go for the guys". Hell, even their Marketing Specialist IS A WOMAN

[Schmooples]

You guys really like living dangerously? Annoying women is the best way to make ones life miserable. Just apologize before you have digged the hole any deeper.

[DelightfulMcCoy]

gregski said:

Creating a marketing strategy/plan is not about including/excluding any group or demographic. This is business, it's not that emotional. It's more about DESCRIBING the group YOU THINK or YOU MANAGED TO PROVE(by doing marketing research) to be MOST LIKELY to buy your product and so concentrating your efforts, your advertising message and money on that group. Of course you are more than happy if people outside of this group buy your products, but the plan you build has to be specific and detailed, not "Let's target everyone". So, they want to sell to everyone but they have to allocate their resources to a group that is most likely to purchase the product.

Well, the "17+ gamer" is so incredibly vague, where's the sense in actively excluding women by adding the "male" to it? That is the group "YOU THINK or YOU MANAGED TO PROVE(by doing marketing research) to be MOST LIKELY to buy your product..."? Be more specific in other aspects of the "description" of your target demographic, then it might a bit of sense, but not in that sentence. Not that I'm saying you wrote that sentence.