Sign In »
Register Now!
Help
PM I don't know man, what if "controlling" Geralt in Witcher 1 by making him believe she is the one sorceress he loved once was indeed an order by the lodge, but it evolves into more than just an love affair for her? Just watch the first seconds of that video, first they discuss other political things, but Geralt is also a subject of concern. It reminds me a lot of Fringilla Vigo in every matter.
In my opinion she is as guilty as any other member of the lodge for what the lodge has done (cling together, swing together), of course she wouldn't go as far as the other ones on her own, but if she had to do it for a greater purpose, i don't see a reason why she wouldn't do so.
That's even the whole reason why she is even participating in that lodge thing, to achieve greater goals even if the means are kinda shady. While someone like Yennefer is disgusted by that idea of the lodge the very first moment she heard of them.
I'm not mad, it's just your whole argument is that she wouldn't do it, because she is a good person, while i am saying, she isn't really such a good person, because she did already the worst thing someone can do, betraying her loved ones.
She chose greater aims over her own personal affairs, of course she isn't happy about that and that shows indeed she has a good heart, but it doesn't nullify the fact that she is willingly to do shady things to achieve them.
One could say that her relationship to Geralt is actually changing this.
ssssssssssssssss
Triss or Yennefer? (possible Spoiler)
- Guy N'wah
- Moderators
- Posts: 4800
- Joined: 09 January 11
- Location: Where the swallows come back
- Baby Fleder
-
20.02.2013 @ 01:41 #182
There is nothing in the content of that dialogue that gives cause to attribute nefarious motives to Triss, whether betrayal or anything else.
She is willing to use sorcery and deceit to her ends, but to claim those ends are bad ones goes beyond the evidence, and your refusal to take seriously the position of anyone who believes the contrary is to me evidence that you do not really wish to discuss the question.
She is willing to use sorcery and deceit to her ends, but to claim those ends are bad ones goes beyond the evidence, and your refusal to take seriously the position of anyone who believes the contrary is to me evidence that you do not really wish to discuss the question.
The amateur tenor, whose vocal villainies
All desire to shirk,
Shall during off hours exhibit his powers
To Madame Tussaud's wax-work.
[G&S, "A more humane Mikado"]
All desire to shirk,
Shall during off hours exhibit his powers
To Madame Tussaud's wax-work.
[G&S, "A more humane Mikado"]
23120.02.2013 @ 01:49 #183
If Triss wasn't trying to manipulate things, she certainly would not have jumped into bed with Geralt after having pulled him out of the swamp following the fight with Javed by the tower. It certainly struck me that she jumped into bed with Geralt at the behest of the Lodge in order to guide him in the directions they wanted. Turning Alvin over to her, since Ciri has slipped their grasp, and the plot in Wyzima. She also knows Geralt was/is in love with Yennefer, yet she uses his amnesia to her own advantage to get what she has lusted after for some time. It worked out well for her, accomplished two goals with one shot. Seems rather conniving to me. Everything else the Butcher relates from his wife is true, why wouldn't her opinion of Adda and Triss be correct as well? More than once in the two games she runs off to take care "personal business", rather than confide in Geralt what she is doing. Even Geralt is suspicious about how she got some people to talk/cooperate in the two games. She is a sorceress willingly involved with an organization that has political ambitions, and will use whatever means at their disposal to achieve their goals, including seduction. I am not using her sexual exploits to pass judgement on her as far the "good/bad" line goes, just in context as to which one Geralt may end up with after Witcher 3. Not that Yennefer was/is the greatest catch either.
20.02.2013 @ 01:55 #184
Well, my assumption is based on things she already did, never said she is evil or bad, but she accepts a subordinate role to the lodge to achieve greater aims even knowing what shady means they use.
Also why would the lodge even invite her to this secret organization in the first place, if they don't trust her? Nobody gets invited to such an organization without having a certain background.
She is also furious about that matter, if you give Alvin to Shani.
http://youtu.be/xrcwuuJzyXw?t=9m57s
Also why would the lodge even invite her to this secret organization in the first place, if they don't trust her? Nobody gets invited to such an organization without having a certain background.
vonGraudenz said:
It certainly struck me that she jumped into bed with Geralt at the behest of the Lodge in order to guide him in the directions they wanted. Turning Alvin over to her, since Ciri has slipped their grasp, and the plot in Wyzima.
http://youtu.be/xrcwuuJzyXw?t=9m57s
-
- Guy N'wah
- Moderators
- Posts: 4800
- Joined: 09 January 11
- Location: Where the swallows come back
- Baby Fleder
-
20.02.2013 @ 02:02 #185
To reduce the potential decision between Yennefer and Triss to a question of which one is the better "catch", the one less likely to use Geralt to her own ends, the better prospect for a stable long-term relationship, the better friend or lover or the one Geralt's at present more infatuated with just rubs me the wrong way. It's nothing like what the game should stand for.
Geralt has a much bigger problem than which sorceress he should cohabit with. He's stuck with a Destiny that he may or may not believe in, that he may acquiesce in or try to ignore or choose to fight against even if he does believe in it. How his relationship with these women, as well as with Ciri, relates to his determination to live his life in his chosen way is what matters and what the game should focus on, and if the game were to trivialize it to a decision of which he loved more, I would be astonished and greatly disappointed.
Geralt has a much bigger problem than which sorceress he should cohabit with. He's stuck with a Destiny that he may or may not believe in, that he may acquiesce in or try to ignore or choose to fight against even if he does believe in it. How his relationship with these women, as well as with Ciri, relates to his determination to live his life in his chosen way is what matters and what the game should focus on, and if the game were to trivialize it to a decision of which he loved more, I would be astonished and greatly disappointed.
The amateur tenor, whose vocal villainies
All desire to shirk,
Shall during off hours exhibit his powers
To Madame Tussaud's wax-work.
[G&S, "A more humane Mikado"]
All desire to shirk,
Shall during off hours exhibit his powers
To Madame Tussaud's wax-work.
[G&S, "A more humane Mikado"]
20.02.2013 @ 02:17 #186
Actually I do think who Geralt ends up with, if anyone, will be decided by much greater events than his own desire. Whether that is because it is guided by Fate/Destiny, or the just the natural course of events remains to be seen. I was merely trying to point out, just as with most decisions Geralt makes, there isn't a clear cut winner.<br><br>Edit: However, it may wind up being a player decision, just like the Shani/Triss choice, with consequences attached that we can't foresee. In which it will matter how we as players see the characters.<br>
-
- Guy N'wah
- Moderators
- Posts: 4800
- Joined: 09 January 11
- Location: Where the swallows come back
- Baby Fleder
-
20.02.2013 @ 02:28 #187
vonGraudenz said:
Actually I do think who Geralt ends up with, if anyone, will be decided by much greater events than his own desire. Whether that is because it is guided by Fate/Destiny, or the just the natural course of events remains to be seen. I was merely trying to point out, just as with most decisions Geralt makes, there isn't a clear cut winner.<br><br>Edit: However, it may wind up being a player decision, just like the Shani/Triss choice, with consequences attached that we can't foresee. In which it will matter how we as players see the characters.<br> ›››
I fully agree. I'm just complaining about the sentiment expressed in various ways, in this thread and others, that it can be just a question of whether the player prefers Triss or Yennefer, or that the game ought to validate the actions of a player who reduces it to that.
The amateur tenor, whose vocal villainies
All desire to shirk,
Shall during off hours exhibit his powers
To Madame Tussaud's wax-work.
[G&S, "A more humane Mikado"]
All desire to shirk,
Shall during off hours exhibit his powers
To Madame Tussaud's wax-work.
[G&S, "A more humane Mikado"]
20.02.2013 @ 08:02 #188
Guy N said:
I'm just complaining about the sentiment expressed in various ways, in this thread and others, that it can be just a question of whether the player prefers Triss or Yennefer, or that the game ought to validate the actions of a player who reduces it to that. ›››
I understand what you mean, but this is a caveat of allowing player agency in a game- part of the character's personality comes from the player, and so some decisions made may be out-of-character in the canonical sense. I agree, however, that the world shouldn't necessarily "sit right" with such decisions, but react appropriately.
20.02.2013 @ 23:41 #189
Quote
I don't know man, what if "controlling" Geralt in Witcher 1 by making him believe she is the one sorceress he loved once was indeed an order by the lodge, but it evolves into more than just an love affair for her? Just watch the first seconds of that video, first they discuss other political things, but Geralt is also a subject of concern. It reminds me a lot of Fringilla Vigo in every matter.
In my opinion she is as guilty as any other member of the lodge for what the lodge has done (cling together, swing together), of course she wouldn't go as far as the other ones on her own, but if she had to do it for a greater purpose, i don't see a reason why she wouldn't do so.
That's even the whole reason why she is even participating in that lodge thing, to achieve greater goals even if the means are kinda shady. While someone like Yennefer is disgusted by that idea of the lodge the very first moment she heard of them.
I'm not mad, it's just your whole argument is that she wouldn't do it, because she is a good person, while i am saying, she isn't really such a good person, because she did already the worst thing someone can do, betraying her loved ones.
She chose greater aims over her own personal affairs, of course she isn't happy about that and that shows indeed she has a good heart, but it doesn't nullify the fact that she is willingly to do shady things to achieve them.
One could say that her relationship to Geralt is actually changing this.
In my opinion she is as guilty as any other member of the lodge for what the lodge has done (cling together, swing together), of course she wouldn't go as far as the other ones on her own, but if she had to do it for a greater purpose, i don't see a reason why she wouldn't do so.
That's even the whole reason why she is even participating in that lodge thing, to achieve greater goals even if the means are kinda shady. While someone like Yennefer is disgusted by that idea of the lodge the very first moment she heard of them.
I'm not mad, it's just your whole argument is that she wouldn't do it, because she is a good person, while i am saying, she isn't really such a good person, because she did already the worst thing someone can do, betraying her loved ones.
She chose greater aims over her own personal affairs, of course she isn't happy about that and that shows indeed she has a good heart, but it doesn't nullify the fact that she is willingly to do shady things to achieve them.
One could say that her relationship to Geralt is actually changing this.
Quote
If Triss wasn't trying to manipulate things, she certainly would not have jumped into bed with Geralt after having pulled him out of the swamp following the fight with Javed by the tower. It certainly struck me that she jumped into bed with Geralt at the behest of the Lodge in order to guide him in the directions they wanted. Turning Alvin over to her, since Ciri has slipped their grasp, and the plot in Wyzima. She also knows Geralt was/is in love with Yennefer, yet she uses his amnesia to her own advantage to get what she has lusted after for some time. It worked out well for her, accomplished two goals with one shot. Seems rather conniving to me. Everything else the Butcher relates from his wife is true, why wouldn't her opinion of Adda and Triss be correct as well? More than once in the two games she runs off to take care "personal business", rather than confide in Geralt what she is doing. Even Geralt is suspicious about how she got some people to talk/cooperate in the two games. She is a sorceress willingly involved with an organization that has political ambitions, and will use whatever means at their disposal to achieve their goals, including seduction. I am not using her sexual exploits to pass judgement on her as far the "good/bad" line goes, just in context as to which one Geralt may end up with after Witcher 3. Not that Yennefer was/is the greatest catch either.
Well guys, i have been carefully thinking and the best conclusion i can draw of all this is that we don't have the same morals degree, i guess.
To me, Triss hasn't done anything that wrong, either in books or games, her decision to join the lodge was first motived by the fact she was afraid, confused, and lost. The all highter purpose and lesser evil was just a way to convince herself. That decision will lead her to make other mistakes, the biggest one being the Ciri and Yen matter, still since Lodge plan for Ciri wasn't carried out, we simply don't know what she would have done in such case.
She is still with them five years later because she hasn't found a way out and get used to it, however it is clear to me she kept her principles, yes she do have those, it is clearly show in the witcher 2, her behavior and general view of the world is not the same that Filippa and Sile.
Triss in the witcher 1 hasn't been made to be exactly like the canon Triss, she is sort of a mix of herself, Fringilla and Yennefer sometimes, that never bothered me because i think it was intended not to excuse Geralt falling for her but more like winks to the books. You can still reconize the canon Triss in my opinion even if her real and fullself is in TW2. About Alvin, i have strong doubt loge ever knew his existence or his importance in the story, Triss remember Ciri to well and woudn't want to make the same mistake twice. Even if the lodge knew about him, Triss woudn't have tell them right away she took him in. Everything she hide in both games, the lodge, Yen and Ciri, she does it out of fear to lose Geralt. This may be not rational but understandable, from my point of view.
Everything Sapkowski wrote about her suggest she is mostly a good person, different from his other sorceresses, Yen included.
If somehow, the situation would have been reversed, if Geralt would have been in love with Triss, i don't believe she would have join the Lodge, on the other side, Yen would have join and would have done far worse than Triss ever did.
Yen's character is far more close to other sorceresses and if it woundn't have been because she had Geralt and Ciri, she would have join the lodge for very differents reason than Triss, more wrong in my mind. It doesn't mean i don't love Yen, on the contrary, i woudn't have judge her anymore than Triss but i guess this is also part of our disagreement. I don't want to stand as a judge, and no offence, but this is kind of what you do guys.
Finally, i am going to make a list of the so call flings of Triss and explain why, in my mind, there was no flings, or at least no serious hint of it.
The witcher 1
The butcher of act3: don't laught, this is a special case, he may be a potiental fonny witness and a potential lover. Not because his wife's gossip happen to be true on some of it's victims mean she is right about Triss. What exactly does she know about Triss? I doubt a sorceress would let her self see by a commoner while she is using sexual means of corruption, so all she know is: Triss is a woman, she is a sorceress, those two facts added that she play politics mean that Triss is a whore who sleep with everyone to get all she can. This is how most common's people are reasonning about sorcereress, this may be true for some of them but not Triss, regardless of the fact she is a member of the lodge or not.
The butcher himself speaks about her butts, so it can be that one day she came to his shop, offering him a grasp of it for a discount, this is seeking far but well.... oh no finally she can conjure up even some rare meat so she has nothing to gain.
Leuwardeen: He is a nilfargdian, a business and political type, his main goal in the story seems to get rid of salamandra, he doesn't need to be convinced and even if there is other hidden goal, i doubt he would trust a sorceress who would try to seduce him anyway, he can offer himself less dangerous partner. So Triss is problably giving him selected informations from the lodge in return of his own, this explain Geralt's suspicion, he doesn't wonder if Triss is screwing around for it, he wonder who are her other sources and who is backing her: what she say: 'i can't tell you' or 'i promise not to say anything' something like that really mean: the lodge.
Their behavior at the party is just political, as well as other party members comments on it, there is no 'after'.
Foltest: He is a king who already banned mages of his kingdom, trying to seduce him woudn't be smart in order to become his advisor, he woudn't trust no more that Leuvaarden a such way, using her trumb card, Geralt, to cure/kill Adda, to cut Salamandra head and our friend from the order is way more smart. Since Geralt is already heading toward these goals, why should he mind if it helps Triss in the process? Same thing once she became his advisor, trying to seduce him isn't the best way to have a long carreer.
You can always say: 'she could use magic' and i will say that it were that simple, mages would already control the world without need of all their scheme.
Geralt: He is the only one she actually want to seduce, she gets in bed with him because she want him, yen is out of the way and she take the opportunity, you can have highter morale value than me and think this is wrong but it is not like if she hide a tied Yennefer in her home or know what happened to her. and Geralt is no kid, this is not a little sex who will convince him to do anything.
Any gossip, rumors or insinuations is there to show the advance thinking most people have of women with some power, sorceress included.
If i forgot someone, let me know.
TW2
This post seem huge, but well i started it.
The guard who intrude in the tent at the beginning and looks like he never saw a naked woman before: I am covering every possibility, even the most ridiculous.
How can i put it, the only way the guy would have his way with her would be in a rape, since she meet Geralt and Foltest at the castle later, nothing happened.
Shorty and the mysterious man in blue: I am putting those two together, because they appear in the same conversation, so Triss know Shorty's nickname has nothing to do with his manhood and a other secret admirative boy proposed her!!! who know if she didn't had the two at the same time, or if one of them could have been Vernon...
This is quite a funny conversation and a way to tease Geralt, test his reactions, nothing to read here, even if shorty has a big mouth or bad habit when he is drunk.
Cedric: When they meet him, Cedric compliment her on her scent, Geralt gets a little jealous and conversation goes on. Later Triss say to Geralt, if he took her on a walk to the ruins, 'Cedric told me a beautiful legend about this place' and so on.... Oh My, she actually talked to him again, what the hell does that mean!? Seriously Triss is not a child, she can walk around and talk to people even with a drunk elf who complimented her. If she roal around in the wood with Cedric, why would she tells him she speak with him?
Later again, she ask Cedric's help and not Geralt's.................................................................
No doubt is possible, Cedric would have never helped her without sleeping first. Really, she ask Cedric's help because she know he won't ask embarassing question, unlike Geralt who could find out the truth about the lodge, she also benefit from the fact that Geralt is running in the wood in his search for Letho. She is a really mean and deceitful girl, i know.
Some players seems to wonder if the: 'i need to take care of something' or a sentence alike is related to Cedric, it is mostly related to searching a opportunity to sneak around Sile's room and she certainly speaks with Cedric sometimes.
I acknowledge the possibility that if there is mutual attraction between Cedric and Triss, she could act on it if Geralt did his best to end their ambiguous love interest in the bath or at the inn but in this case, he has nothing to say on the matter anymore. And that remain to be proved because there is nothing that hint it except some players's imagination.
Letho: He kidnaped Triss, it is obvious something is going to happen between them...
When he tells her the lodge hired him to be a slayer of king, she certainly didn't paid him in nature, it was part of his plan, she could simply be a witness for Geralt, or at Loc muinne. This is what Geralt wonder about, not if Letho sold his informations for nature pleasure.
Shilard and Renuald: Since we are at it, we can also imagine that Triss may have tried to loan her body to those two, maybe she could gain her freedom this way, or simply get a better treatment. Most likely, if anything happen, this would be the threat of a rape, a way to scare her but do it for real would prove less efficient to make her talk with brutal physical torture with tools and such.
If i forgot someone, let me know.
Conclusion: There is nothing who say seriously, directly or indirectly, that Triss ever slept with someone else that Geralt during both games events, if you want to imagine it, this is fine but don't state it as if it is hard proved facts.
You might not believe it, but i actually tried to make it short.
21.02.2013 @ 13:29 #190
Don't have time to read the whole post right now (work and other matters of no importance are waiting), but i am just stating facts not interpretations from the books, things that already happened in the books. We can discuss our interpretations about her behaviour in the games, that's okay, because those are really just interpretations, i already admit that countless times here and in the other thread, but the things, which happened in the books, well, happened and you can't deny them or turn a blind eye.
They are there and you can't seriously say, she is just an innocent lamp/angel and didn't really wanted to participate in this, despite well being part of this and following their lead.
The very first moment Yennefer realized what is going on with that lodge thing, she turned against them and fled, if it is so obviously, even a naive person like Triss has to see it.
"She had already sex just for the sake of it or because she lusted after it." She is even fantasizing about Geralt. Of course she is not a slut, hell, from all the characters in the books and games, Geralt is probably the most sluttiest person, he really sleeps with women just for his lust or forget painful memories, in books and games.
"Every sorceress uses their beauty for their purposes, sex is not an exception." Wearing a neglige or a daringly dress in a meeting is not really modest. The sorceresses, including Triss, are even making fun of Assire var Anahid and her "ugly" looks.
"Triss accepts a subordinate role to the lodge, willingly and without any force, spell, whatever." Hell, she is even one of the founding members. You just don't get invited to such an organization, if you don't have a certain background. If Philippa is the inofficial head of the lodge, why would she even invite such a good person anyway? Doesn't make sense.
"Triss already betrayed her loved ones once (Yennefer, Ciri and Geralt) and sticked to the lodge until Witcher 2, despite knowing what the goals of the lodge were and still are."
"Instead helping Yennefer, she is ordered to follow and trace her." and guess what she did? Exactly, she did what the lodge told her.
Those are facts and happened, denying them is naive.
Let's just leave that sex thing out, she is (and was until the end of Witcher 2) a puppet in this play, accepting her role as such, that's not something i made up, we even see her contacting another lodge member in Witcher 1. Finally at the end of Witcher 2 she is actually trying to resist the lodge and oppose them, kinda late in my opinion.
I wouldn't even make such a fuss about that, but saying she is the only one person in the whole witcher universe that is innocent and a good person is just false, because she already showed that she isn't.
They are there and you can't seriously say, she is just an innocent lamp/angel and didn't really wanted to participate in this, despite well being part of this and following their lead.
The very first moment Yennefer realized what is going on with that lodge thing, she turned against them and fled, if it is so obviously, even a naive person like Triss has to see it.
"She had already sex just for the sake of it or because she lusted after it." She is even fantasizing about Geralt. Of course she is not a slut, hell, from all the characters in the books and games, Geralt is probably the most sluttiest person, he really sleeps with women just for his lust or forget painful memories, in books and games.
"Every sorceress uses their beauty for their purposes, sex is not an exception." Wearing a neglige or a daringly dress in a meeting is not really modest. The sorceresses, including Triss, are even making fun of Assire var Anahid and her "ugly" looks.
"Triss accepts a subordinate role to the lodge, willingly and without any force, spell, whatever." Hell, she is even one of the founding members. You just don't get invited to such an organization, if you don't have a certain background. If Philippa is the inofficial head of the lodge, why would she even invite such a good person anyway? Doesn't make sense.
"Triss already betrayed her loved ones once (Yennefer, Ciri and Geralt) and sticked to the lodge until Witcher 2, despite knowing what the goals of the lodge were and still are."
"Instead helping Yennefer, she is ordered to follow and trace her." and guess what she did? Exactly, she did what the lodge told her.
Those are facts and happened, denying them is naive.
Let's just leave that sex thing out, she is (and was until the end of Witcher 2) a puppet in this play, accepting her role as such, that's not something i made up, we even see her contacting another lodge member in Witcher 1. Finally at the end of Witcher 2 she is actually trying to resist the lodge and oppose them, kinda late in my opinion.
I wouldn't even make such a fuss about that, but saying she is the only one person in the whole witcher universe that is innocent and a good person is just false, because she already showed that she isn't.
21.02.2013 @ 18:09 #191
Oh boy, here i thought i was defending Yennefer too much, but you surpasses me by a mile.
And it's getting kinda tedious by now, i already had this discussion with over a dozen people here and many more elsewhere, every time we came to the conclusion that Triss is not an innocent angel and is by far not such a good person as she seems to be, in books and games.
You whole argument is based on "she wouldn't do that, because she is a good person.", that's not really convincing. Never say never, especially if she already did or didn't things, which weren't in their best manner, e.g. sleeping with your bestfriends lover, what a good girl. I don't know about you or your friends, but we have an unwritten rule, never fuck the ex from your friend, that's not cool.
Triss also did kinda the worst thing you can do to your family, betraying and leaving them in the lurch, and yeah it's her family, because that's what Geralt, Yennefer and Ciri is for her, afaik she doesn't have anyone beside them.
If you didn't read the books, i would understand your vehement defense of her, but what makes me wonder is that you actually read them and still believe, she is an holy angel.
You also read threads like this one thread, where you were also arguing about her character, i really don't know what to say, if the scenes and facts from the books doesn't convince you, why should my or anybody else personal opinion do it? You are interpreting the scenes in the books just how you want them.
Let's just accept that Triss is the sole good character, the mother Theresa, innocent, flawless, kind, chaste, blamelessly, willing to make sacrifices for others, and and and (yeah, that was sarcasm). You are defending her like the holy grail, nothing i (or anyone else seems so) can change that, so why even have a discussion about it? You already had one long discussion with Blothulfur and he is much more eloquent and convincing than i ever will be, at least in english.
Your posts make me kinda wish that CDPR will hopefully show Triss' true face in TW3, so this can open your eyes for the obvious, or even better Geralt does choose the one he wants and not the player.
If my bestfriend does nothing, while my (non existent) wife and (non existent) daughter are missing, probably imprisoned and tortured, and i am going on a death or life trip to rescue both, i would come back and kick his ass to the moon for doing nothing to help me, because that's what she did, nothing. What a good person she is (yeah, sarcasm again).
Geralt risked his life to resuce both without doubt, Yennefer risked her life to save and protect both without doubt, Ciri was lost and on a rampage in Nilfgaard and what did Triss? Nothing, because she was frightened of the lodge? Yeah, that makes sense, who could possible blame her for that, that poor weak girl. Living in castle yaddayadda, drinking wine and being served by younglings, i can't imagine the pain she is enduring. (sarcrasm the 3rd).
With friends like these, who needs enemies?
Hell, even total strangers like Milva, Regis and Angoulême helped Geralt to save them
I really hope now that Geralt is not as forgiving as i was before and Yennefer kicks her ass for everything she did or didn't do..
And stop mentioning that sex thing, makes me believe you think sex is sacred and forbidden except for married people.
I'm out.
And it's getting kinda tedious by now, i already had this discussion with over a dozen people here and many more elsewhere, every time we came to the conclusion that Triss is not an innocent angel and is by far not such a good person as she seems to be, in books and games.
You whole argument is based on "she wouldn't do that, because she is a good person.", that's not really convincing. Never say never, especially if she already did or didn't things, which weren't in their best manner, e.g. sleeping with your bestfriends lover, what a good girl. I don't know about you or your friends, but we have an unwritten rule, never fuck the ex from your friend, that's not cool.
Triss also did kinda the worst thing you can do to your family, betraying and leaving them in the lurch, and yeah it's her family, because that's what Geralt, Yennefer and Ciri is for her, afaik she doesn't have anyone beside them.
If you didn't read the books, i would understand your vehement defense of her, but what makes me wonder is that you actually read them and still believe, she is an holy angel.
You also read threads like this one thread, where you were also arguing about her character, i really don't know what to say, if the scenes and facts from the books doesn't convince you, why should my or anybody else personal opinion do it? You are interpreting the scenes in the books just how you want them.
Let's just accept that Triss is the sole good character, the mother Theresa, innocent, flawless, kind, chaste, blamelessly, willing to make sacrifices for others, and and and (yeah, that was sarcasm). You are defending her like the holy grail, nothing i (or anyone else seems so) can change that, so why even have a discussion about it? You already had one long discussion with Blothulfur and he is much more eloquent and convincing than i ever will be, at least in english.
Your posts make me kinda wish that CDPR will hopefully show Triss' true face in TW3, so this can open your eyes for the obvious, or even better Geralt does choose the one he wants and not the player.
If my bestfriend does nothing, while my (non existent) wife and (non existent) daughter are missing, probably imprisoned and tortured, and i am going on a death or life trip to rescue both, i would come back and kick his ass to the moon for doing nothing to help me, because that's what she did, nothing. What a good person she is (yeah, sarcasm again).
Geralt risked his life to resuce both without doubt, Yennefer risked her life to save and protect both without doubt, Ciri was lost and on a rampage in Nilfgaard and what did Triss? Nothing, because she was frightened of the lodge? Yeah, that makes sense, who could possible blame her for that, that poor weak girl. Living in castle yaddayadda, drinking wine and being served by younglings, i can't imagine the pain she is enduring. (sarcrasm the 3rd).
With friends like these, who needs enemies?
Hell, even total strangers like Milva, Regis and Angoulême helped Geralt to save them
I really hope now that Geralt is not as forgiving as i was before and Yennefer kicks her ass for everything she did or didn't do..
And stop mentioning that sex thing, makes me believe you think sex is sacred and forbidden except for married people.
I'm out.
21.02.2013 @ 18:50 #192
Axioma of CDPR about TW series;
Nobody is good and nobody is bad. There's not goodness or evil, just decisions to take. (that includes Triss, she's not a bad girl but she's not her hands clean.)
As in books Yennefer becomes from to be an dislike character to been a sacrified wife and mother, Triss follows the contrary way (perhaps for wrongly ideas), she becomes from to be a young sorceress who for first time fall in love (from her bestfreind's man) to be a loyal arm of The Lodge in dispite of the people she loves.
Choosing who is good or evil is really unfair for the whole Story.
But, if CDPR make Triss a good choice for Geralt they will betrayal book's fans and if CDPR make Yennefer his real loved women then they will betrayal Triss's fans. And of course, the voices from ones or anothers will claim in a very passionate criticism....
/>
Nobody is good and nobody is bad. There's not goodness or evil, just decisions to take. (that includes Triss, she's not a bad girl but she's not her hands clean.)
As in books Yennefer becomes from to be an dislike character to been a sacrified wife and mother, Triss follows the contrary way (perhaps for wrongly ideas), she becomes from to be a young sorceress who for first time fall in love (from her bestfreind's man) to be a loyal arm of The Lodge in dispite of the people she loves.
Choosing who is good or evil is really unfair for the whole Story.
But, if CDPR make Triss a good choice for Geralt they will betrayal book's fans and if CDPR make Yennefer his real loved women then they will betrayal Triss's fans. And of course, the voices from ones or anothers will claim in a very passionate criticism....
/>
Intelligence, whether emotional or any otherwise,
or is social or is not intelligenceUna salus victis nullam sperare salutemPlease, PM me for correct my English mistakes, if you don't mind. TY
21.02.2013 @ 19:28 #193
I just don't like it, if one gets idolized, while the other one gets all the blame.
I still believe, Triss is indeed the new Fingilla Vigo and will be dropped exactly like her.
Wichat said:
[...]
But, if CDPR make Triss a good choice for Geralt they will betrayal book's fans and if CDPR make Yennefer his real loved women then they will betrayal Triss's fans. And of course, the voices from ones or anothers will claim in a very passionate criticism..../> ›››
But, if CDPR make Triss a good choice for Geralt they will betrayal book's fans and if CDPR make Yennefer his real loved women then they will betrayal Triss's fans. And of course, the voices from ones or anothers will claim in a very passionate criticism....
/> ››› I still believe, Triss is indeed the new Fingilla Vigo and will be dropped exactly like her.
21.02.2013 @ 19:47 #194
I never tried to make look like Triss a innocent person. Only babies who where just born are innocent. A mostly good character with many flaws, yes, no doubt.
I never denied Triss actions during books events, we simply don't have the same views on how to interprete her motives or the gravity of those actions. Maybe you consider her motives irrelevant and judge only on the actions, or maybe you consider her actions too wrong and that is where we disagree.
She discovered sexual pleasure and therefore had various kind of partners. What exactly in that is wrong or prove she is willing tu use her body for other purpose than pleasure? Nothing. Geralt is a special case, she stated herself that meeting him changed many things in her mind. First time she seduced him, things weren't so good with Yen one more time and Geralt fall in Triss's arms not because of some magic or wathever else, but because he was miserable and wanted to. If you consider Geralt's Obssesion for Yennefer and if she loved someone else than him, woudn't he try to take advantage of a chaotic situation? Yes he would.
The only reason Yen is disgusted by the lodge is because her conscience awoke during the time she spent with Ciri, hadn't she met the girl she eventually saw as her daugther and therefore stabilized her personnality, she would have join the lodge.
About the rest, look, in my current reading, i finished the two short stories books and will return to the witcher saga next week, i will have days off so plenty time to read. That will refresh my memory of the details. I will then quote every last pertinent part that prove Sapkowski wrote Triss to be a very non-typical sorceress and that her good sides are far bigger than the bad ones, including during those choices that you think she willingly and coldly made. This won't be to change your mind, simply to demonstrate that some of the bad opinion about Triss don't serve justice to the character.
Not in this thread thought, a other more appropriate.
Maybe i sound like as if i prefer Triss but i don't, i have no idea of witch one i prefer, and in game, Geralt doesn't look like he is more advance on the subject anyway. Since it is Geralt opinion who matter at the end and since i am pretty sure he doesn't give much thought about who is the more guilty, cold, manipulative or whatever, so neither do i.
Edit: sorry, i started the message some time ago and drop it for a while, no time to read everything you add now. Yeah, i did read the books, we definetly don't have the same view on some things.
I never denied Triss actions during books events, we simply don't have the same views on how to interprete her motives or the gravity of those actions. Maybe you consider her motives irrelevant and judge only on the actions, or maybe you consider her actions too wrong and that is where we disagree.
She discovered sexual pleasure and therefore had various kind of partners. What exactly in that is wrong or prove she is willing tu use her body for other purpose than pleasure? Nothing. Geralt is a special case, she stated herself that meeting him changed many things in her mind. First time she seduced him, things weren't so good with Yen one more time and Geralt fall in Triss's arms not because of some magic or wathever else, but because he was miserable and wanted to. If you consider Geralt's Obssesion for Yennefer and if she loved someone else than him, woudn't he try to take advantage of a chaotic situation? Yes he would.
The only reason Yen is disgusted by the lodge is because her conscience awoke during the time she spent with Ciri, hadn't she met the girl she eventually saw as her daugther and therefore stabilized her personnality, she would have join the lodge.
About the rest, look, in my current reading, i finished the two short stories books and will return to the witcher saga next week, i will have days off so plenty time to read. That will refresh my memory of the details. I will then quote every last pertinent part that prove Sapkowski wrote Triss to be a very non-typical sorceress and that her good sides are far bigger than the bad ones, including during those choices that you think she willingly and coldly made. This won't be to change your mind, simply to demonstrate that some of the bad opinion about Triss don't serve justice to the character.
Not in this thread thought, a other more appropriate.
Maybe i sound like as if i prefer Triss but i don't, i have no idea of witch one i prefer, and in game, Geralt doesn't look like he is more advance on the subject anyway. Since it is Geralt opinion who matter at the end and since i am pretty sure he doesn't give much thought about who is the more guilty, cold, manipulative or whatever, so neither do i.
Edit: sorry, i started the message some time ago and drop it for a while, no time to read everything you add now. Yeah, i did read the books, we definetly don't have the same view on some things.
21.02.2013 @ 21:47 #195
Wichat said:
[...]
But, if CDPR make Triss a good choice for Geralt they will betrayal book's fans and if CDPR make Yennefer his real loved women then they will betrayal Triss's fans. And of course, the voices from ones or anothers will claim in a very passionate criticism..../> ›››
But, if CDPR make Triss a good choice for Geralt they will betrayal book's fans and if CDPR make Yennefer his real loved women then they will betrayal Triss's fans. And of course, the voices from ones or anothers will claim in a very passionate criticism....
/> ››› Well if only half of the book readers (a fraction of all players) really like Yennefer and most of the non-readers favor Triss, how high are the chances that Yennefer can actually "win"? I mean seriously? Does she even have a chance anymore? I know Geralt sacrificed his life for her and the player should know this, but come on, it's Triss Merigold.
If they make Triss the canon LI, they retcon everything what happened in the books. If they stick to the lore, they will piss off the players, because Triss "the good, honest, dear one" Merigold is the wiser choice, because she would never ever forever betray Geralt, it would be unthinkable. She was always honest with him, always told him everything, the whole truth, never withhold any information from him, i mean, why should she do this? It's not like she is in any shady organization that wants to control every king in the north.
Yeah, it's my day of sarcasm ^^
21.02.2013 @ 22:55 #196
Well i didn't intent to appoint myself Triss's Lawyer by joining the forum but i guess this just happened.
Didn't get the impression to defend her like 'the holy grail' or think she is a 'holy angel', just making some analysis based on personnality, not just: she did this, she did that and didn't do that, so she is this kind of person and i figured it all out. Might be sarcasm here.
If i interpret the books, so are you, except i am trying to understand the characters psyches while you base your interpretation from your obvious high moral standard, in Triss Merigold's case at least.
Oh and no, sex isn't reserved to married people, i would be a very unhappy man then.
Let's just drop this all argument, will do my thing as i said and if you feel like it, you will explain how i interpret the books as i want them.
Back on topic, some might find surprising if i weren't disapoint that Geralt end up with Yennefer, providing they are alive of course, i would even be happy for them. Like i stated in a other thread, the disapointment would come that not giving choices to the players would nullified the fact that there were some to make in the previous games, like it would ruin a part of the genious ambiguous setting of TW2, in my taste.
Didn't get the impression to defend her like 'the holy grail' or think she is a 'holy angel', just making some analysis based on personnality, not just: she did this, she did that and didn't do that, so she is this kind of person and i figured it all out. Might be sarcasm here.
If i interpret the books, so are you, except i am trying to understand the characters psyches while you base your interpretation from your obvious high moral standard, in Triss Merigold's case at least.
Oh and no, sex isn't reserved to married people, i would be a very unhappy man then.
Let's just drop this all argument, will do my thing as i said and if you feel like it, you will explain how i interpret the books as i want them.
Back on topic, some might find surprising if i weren't disapoint that Geralt end up with Yennefer, providing they are alive of course, i would even be happy for them. Like i stated in a other thread, the disapointment would come that not giving choices to the players would nullified the fact that there were some to make in the previous games, like it would ruin a part of the genious ambiguous setting of TW2, in my taste.
21.02.2013 @ 23:26 #197
Well, as i said, was stating what the books and the characters said not me and the scenes/dialogues weren't really ambiguous.
I could look for some quotes, but i doubt that will change anything and hence the effort would be futile anyway.
You have one solid opinion about her, i believe she has to kill Yennefer (to replace her) to change your opinion about her, it has to be so drastical before you will see that she has also a "dark side", otherwise you will still saying she is just the innocent lamb despite what she already did.
I could look for some quotes, but i doubt that will change anything and hence the effort would be futile anyway.
You have one solid opinion about her, i believe she has to kill Yennefer (to replace her) to change your opinion about her, it has to be so drastical before you will see that she has also a "dark side", otherwise you will still saying she is just the innocent lamb despite what she already did.
22.02.2013 @ 05:48 #198
(Sorry my english is not good enough...)
I have just finished reading this conversation about Triss, and to be honest, I partly agree with everyone here. I don’t want to start a new “fight”, just wanted to share my humble opinion.
(As it was mentioned before) nobody is perfect, everybody has flaws in the Witcher universe. No doubt that Triss has flaws too. I think she is the kind of person (just like Yennifer) who can be loved or hated, maybe there is no middle way.
I agree that she is neither an innocent little girl nor a saint, and unfortunately made several mistakes in the past. But despite all these facts, I still think she wasn’t a bad person and didn’t want to hurt anyone.
In my opinion, she was a desperately insecure, naive, coward woman, who didn’t have the strength to leave the Lodge. It was easier to hide behind the Lodge’s skirt than to give up everything and help her friends. Triss just couldn’t do it, maybe because she was too scared, confused and didn’t know what to do. But it was clearly stated in the books that she wasn’t happy about it and felt guilty for leaving them alone.
So yeah, she actually betrayed her loved ones and that’s really a shame (I just hated that part in the book), but she can’t be blamed forever. Everyone has faults, everyone makes mistakes...
I agree that Triss can’t undo the past, but she will certainly not repeat it. (Let’s not forget she helped her loved ones at the end of the saga. Even though it was kinda too late…)
On the other hand, she has changed a lot over the years, she is not the same person she used to be in the books.
Proof:
I know these facts won’t change people’s opinion about Triss, and I can understand those fans who don’t like her, ‘cause everyone has the right to have their own opinion. But to be honest, I kind of like her, despite all the mistakes she made in the past. She is a quite interesting and complicated character (Yes, I know, Yen is more complicated...
/>/>)
About TW3: I don’t think Triss will be the canon Love Interest, ‘cause I have a feeling that Yenna will be more important in the final game. But I still hope that CDPR will give us the opportunity to choose between women. I think that would be the best solution. Personally I want a playthrough with Yen and a second playthrough with Triss, just to experience two different paths…
I have just finished reading this conversation about Triss, and to be honest, I partly agree with everyone here. I don’t want to start a new “fight”, just wanted to share my humble opinion.
(As it was mentioned before) nobody is perfect, everybody has flaws in the Witcher universe. No doubt that Triss has flaws too. I think she is the kind of person (just like Yennifer) who can be loved or hated, maybe there is no middle way.
I agree that she is neither an innocent little girl nor a saint, and unfortunately made several mistakes in the past. But despite all these facts, I still think she wasn’t a bad person and didn’t want to hurt anyone.
In my opinion, she was a desperately insecure, naive, coward woman, who didn’t have the strength to leave the Lodge. It was easier to hide behind the Lodge’s skirt than to give up everything and help her friends. Triss just couldn’t do it, maybe because she was too scared, confused and didn’t know what to do. But it was clearly stated in the books that she wasn’t happy about it and felt guilty for leaving them alone.
So yeah, she actually betrayed her loved ones and that’s really a shame (I just hated that part in the book), but she can’t be blamed forever. Everyone has faults, everyone makes mistakes...
I agree that Triss can’t undo the past, but she will certainly not repeat it. (Let’s not forget she helped her loved ones at the end of the saga. Even though it was kinda too late…)
On the other hand, she has changed a lot over the years, she is not the same person she used to be in the books.
Proof:
I know these facts won’t change people’s opinion about Triss, and I can understand those fans who don’t like her, ‘cause everyone has the right to have their own opinion. But to be honest, I kind of like her, despite all the mistakes she made in the past. She is a quite interesting and complicated character (Yes, I know, Yen is more complicated...
/>/>)About TW3: I don’t think Triss will be the canon Love Interest, ‘cause I have a feeling that Yenna will be more important in the final game. But I still hope that CDPR will give us the opportunity to choose between women. I think that would be the best solution. Personally I want a playthrough with Yen and a second playthrough with Triss, just to experience two different paths…
22.02.2013 @ 13:33 #199
Yeah, exactly! You nailed it.
She isn't a bad person, it's quite the opposite she is a good one, but being good doesn't always mean doing good. She did mistakes, really big ones, that's not something you shouldn't deny nor should Geralt, unfortunately we don't see Geralt's reaction in the books to her participation in the whole matter, but Triss even admits that Geralt might not forgive her:
People are still pissed about that Yennefer-Istredd affair (she is a slut and blah blah), but that Triss seduced Geralt in a moment of despair was totally okay?
That's not fair, that's having double standards. Also Geralt fucked
All 3 of them did their part and none is virtuous or innocent, you can't blame one for something, but forgive another one for the same thing.
Don't misunderstand me, i do think she is a good person and i still kinda like her (as a friend not a lover), but what i didn't like was her glorification in the games or from the players, despite what she did in her past. It isn't a issue, if you didn't read the books, you probably wouldn't understand or even notice that, but if you read the books and still think that she did nothing wrong, that's just baffling me.
About that repeating thing, yeah and no, i didn't understand then why she was still a lodge member in the games, why didn't she leave the organization? That's bugging me, also those slightly hints like me and other users posted. Why putting a scene talking with another lodge member into the game (i believe it was even Philippa, i read it somewhere here in the forums), if it has no purpose? At this point we don't even know that she is a member of the lodge, hell, we don't even know this until the end of Witcher 2, unless you read the books.
She also pretends to be Geralt's forgotten sorceress lover or at least let him believe she is the one. Also why do you get a magic resistance buff, if you deny her in Witcher 2?
If those things have no real purposes, why did CDPR put them in the game?
In my opinion she kinda repeated some mistakes again, but this time for her personal needs and not political anymore, that's human and kinda understandable, but don't get lulled by her charms and turn a blind eye for her.
She isn't a bad person, it's quite the opposite she is a good one, but being good doesn't always mean doing good. She did mistakes, really big ones, that's not something you shouldn't deny nor should Geralt, unfortunately we don't see Geralt's reaction in the books to her participation in the whole matter, but Triss even admits that Geralt might not forgive her:
Quote
'It is possible,' Triss swallowed. 'He may not forgive. Especially if you insist. But he
won't fly into a rage. He won't lower himself like that.'
won't fly into a rage. He won't lower himself like that.'
People are still pissed about that Yennefer-Istredd affair (she is a slut and blah blah), but that Triss seduced Geralt in a moment of despair was totally okay?
That's not fair, that's having double standards. Also Geralt fucked
All 3 of them did their part and none is virtuous or innocent, you can't blame one for something, but forgive another one for the same thing.
Don't misunderstand me, i do think she is a good person and i still kinda like her (as a friend not a lover), but what i didn't like was her glorification in the games or from the players, despite what she did in her past. It isn't a issue, if you didn't read the books, you probably wouldn't understand or even notice that, but if you read the books and still think that she did nothing wrong, that's just baffling me.
About that repeating thing, yeah and no, i didn't understand then why she was still a lodge member in the games, why didn't she leave the organization? That's bugging me, also those slightly hints like me and other users posted. Why putting a scene talking with another lodge member into the game (i believe it was even Philippa, i read it somewhere here in the forums), if it has no purpose? At this point we don't even know that she is a member of the lodge, hell, we don't even know this until the end of Witcher 2, unless you read the books.
She also pretends to be Geralt's forgotten sorceress lover or at least let him believe she is the one. Also why do you get a magic resistance buff, if you deny her in Witcher 2?
If those things have no real purposes, why did CDPR put them in the game?
In my opinion she kinda repeated some mistakes again, but this time for her personal needs and not political anymore, that's human and kinda understandable, but don't get lulled by her charms and turn a blind eye for her.
27.02.2013 @ 05:12 #200
I partly agree with you, and can understand your point of view, maybe my last post was a bit ambiguous, but I’m not saying Triss is an innocent lamb and did nothing wrong in her past. Nobody can deny that she made the biggest mistake of her life, to be honest, I was also disappointed when I found out the truth about her (I played the games first, and after finished TW2, I read the books too). My only problem is actually that some people exaggerate her mistakes and make it seem like she is a seductive, untrustworthy slut, who's just using Geralt. At the beginning of the saga she was indeed a frivolous, shallow, giggling lass, but she changed a lot over the years (so does Yennifer and Geralt). That, of course, doesn’t mean we should pretend like nothing ever happened in the saga, I just think people shouldn’t go from one extreme to another about Triss (nor about Yennifer). Yeah, they both have flaws, but people shouldn’t blame them forever. In my humble opinion. (I hope I expressed myself clearly, unfortunately my english is not so good… :S)
Indeed, Triss seduced Geralt in a moment of despair (
), but that happened a long time ago, so did the "Yennefer-Istredd affair". Fortunately all of the (above mentioned) characters have changed, none of them are the same they used to be in the books. And I agree, if you can forgive one (in that case Triss), than you should forgive another one for the same thing (Yennifer). Personally, I like both women and don’t blame them because of their past.(I know it's very subjective.)
I have two theories about those hints that you mentioned above, because it is certain that CDPR made them deliberately ambiguous, so players cannot decide whether it can be trusted or not.
1) Maybe CDPR is planning to make a plot twist in TW3 and Triss will show her “true colors”…? I know many fans expect this outcome… (To be honest, I like Triss so I gave her a (second) chance and wanted to trust her in my play-through, despite all of these hints/facts. Yeah, I don’t like that she kept information from Geralt, but I hope my intuition was right, if it turns out I was wrong, I will be disappointed.)
2) Maybe CDPR will explain everything about Triss’ motivations, and will turn out that we just misunderstood these certain (ambiguous) hints. I hope so.
Anyway, I am looking forward to meeting Yennifer and Triss in TW3.
Quote
Kallelinski said:
People are still pissed about that Yennefer-Istredd affair (she is a slut and blah blah), but that Triss seduced Geralt in a moment of despair was totally okay?
That's not fair, that's having double standards. Also Geralt fucked
All 3 of them did their part and none is virtuous or innocent, you can't blame one for something, but forgive another one for the same thing.
People are still pissed about that Yennefer-Istredd affair (she is a slut and blah blah), but that Triss seduced Geralt in a moment of despair was totally okay?
That's not fair, that's having double standards. Also Geralt fucked
All 3 of them did their part and none is virtuous or innocent, you can't blame one for something, but forgive another one for the same thing.
Indeed, Triss seduced Geralt in a moment of despair (
Quote
Kallelinski said:
About that repeating thing, yeah and no, i didn't understand then why she was still a lodge member in the games, why didn't she leave the organization? That's bugging me, also those slightly hints like me and other users posted. Why putting a scene talking with another lodge member into the game (i believe it was even Philippa, i read it somewhere here in the forums), if it has no purpose? At this point we don't even know that she is a member of the lodge, hell, we don't even know this until the end of Witcher 2, unless you read the books.
She also pretends to be Geralt's forgotten sorceress lover or at least let him believe she is the one. Also why do you get a magic resistance buff, if you deny her in Witcher 2?
If those things have no real purposes, why did CDPR put them in the game?
About that repeating thing, yeah and no, i didn't understand then why she was still a lodge member in the games, why didn't she leave the organization? That's bugging me, also those slightly hints like me and other users posted. Why putting a scene talking with another lodge member into the game (i believe it was even Philippa, i read it somewhere here in the forums), if it has no purpose? At this point we don't even know that she is a member of the lodge, hell, we don't even know this until the end of Witcher 2, unless you read the books.
She also pretends to be Geralt's forgotten sorceress lover or at least let him believe she is the one. Also why do you get a magic resistance buff, if you deny her in Witcher 2?
If those things have no real purposes, why did CDPR put them in the game?
I have two theories about those hints that you mentioned above, because it is certain that CDPR made them deliberately ambiguous, so players cannot decide whether it can be trusted or not.
1) Maybe CDPR is planning to make a plot twist in TW3 and Triss will show her “true colors”…? I know many fans expect this outcome… (To be honest, I like Triss so I gave her a (second) chance and wanted to trust her in my play-through, despite all of these hints/facts. Yeah, I don’t like that she kept information from Geralt, but I hope my intuition was right, if it turns out I was wrong, I will be disappointed.)
2) Maybe CDPR will explain everything about Triss’ motivations, and will turn out that we just misunderstood these certain (ambiguous) hints. I hope so.
Anyway, I am looking forward to meeting Yennifer and Triss in TW3.
