[Vilgefortze]

Aye. That, it does.
More ofter than not, the "lesser evil" was the prime aspect in the saga. Hardly anyone is "innocent" in the Witcher world, and it was always about choosing who was the lesser evil, or not choosing sides at all.

Often there were times where choosing a side would have been easier for Geralt, but his neutrality cost him much. His neutrality made him the"Butcher of Blaviken"
There when other times when he had made up his mind to stay neutral, but had to take up his sword (and a side) when the moment appeared. Like the Squirrel raid on Yarpen's caravan.

The game has captured this essence perfectly.

[slimgrin]

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That's what makes this game so great. Each of us is allowed to decide what the lesser evil is.

That quite nicely sums up what is special about The Witcher.

[eskiMoe]

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That's what makes this game so great. Each of us is allowed to decide what the lesser evil is.

That quite nicely sums up what is special about The Witcher.

This. I still remember the time when I wanted everything made by Bioware. But now.. How times have changed. The King is dead. Long live the King (CDPR).

[Drag0ntamer]

I still love Bioware games, just hate how they sold out and now cater to console users and go for sells rather then pleasing their original and die hard fans.

[Corylea]

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I still remember the time when I wanted everything made by Bioware. But now.. How times have changed. The King is dead. Long live the King (CDPR).

Yes!!!

I've been thinking this for awhile -- that CDPR is what Bioware used to be, back when Bioware was THE company for RPG's.  Nice to see I'm not alone.

[slimgrin]

I think Bioware makes good games, but I haven't played Baldurs gate series so I can't claim full knowledge of their history. It was Mass Effect that got me back into gaming after 10 or so years away, and I have huge respect for that game. It was one of my first rpg's and a real revelation for me, but I don't feel the potential of the series was quite realized with ME2. A lot of Bioware's reputation hinges on what they do with DA2. That said, CD Projekt was more innovative in The Witcher than any Bioware game I have played, and the writing is simply on another level.

As for Toruviel, I'm already in chapter four in my third playthrough, and I won't betray her this time, as this is the file I intend to import. Still don't think she's a saint though....

[eskiMoe]

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Still don't think she's a saint though....

I don't think such a person exists in The Witcher..

[Master Shiori]

I just finished the fight against the Order in Old Vizima and saw Rayla get shot by a Scoia'tael archer, but I'm wondering what happened to Toruviel?
She seems to have vanished after the fight and is nowhere to be found, yet my journal doesn't say she died.

Is Toruviel alive and if so where did she vanish to?

[alphacow2]

Hey guys, I just finished the game today *phew* damn was that an awesome game.

Anyways, I sided with the Order first (partly because i made some decisions which were pro-Order)
When i got to the part where White Rayla tells me her crew raped Toruviel, i was SHOCKED, SHOCKED beyond words a the fact that "I, Geralt of Rvia, Awesome Witcher Extradonaire and dirty hornbag" was NOT invited to this group activity!! Like seriously, I killed off most of her unit, i at least deserve a piece of the commander/group leader or something. Or maybe at least give her to me so i can have my way with her before you go and publicly execute her.

As you can see haha im a 'monster under a human's skin' kinda guy ;)  Blame Azar Javed, inspirational villain.

Anyways, i'm downloading some mods before i play 2nd time through, this time pro-scoi'atel. not expecting alot from them, i've always been pro-human-faults > elves-on-their-high-horse

[slimgrin]

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Hey guys, I just finished the game today *phew* damn was that an awesome game.

Anyways, I sided with the Order first (partly because i made some decisions which were pro-Order)
When i got to the part where White Rayla tells me her crew raped Toruviel, i was SHOCKED, SHOCKED beyond words a the fact that "I, Geralt of Rvia, Awesome Witcher Extradonaire and dirty hornbag" was NOT invited to this group activity!! Like seriously, I killed off most of her unit, i at least deserve a piece of the commander/group leader or something. Or maybe at least give her to me so i can have my way with her before you go and publicly execute her.

As you can see haha im a 'monster under a human's skin' kinda guy ;)  Blame Azar Javed, inspirational villain.

Anyways, i'm downloading some mods before i play 2nd time through, this time pro-scoi'atel. not expecting alot from them, i've always been pro-human-faults > elves-on-their-high-horse

You are indeed a monster.

[Seeker]

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My second play through. This game continues to amaze. White Rayla is awesome, and positively ruthless.

But they hung her, they hung Toruviel - my first time siding with the Order. My jaw was literally hanging. I have never played a game with this level of reactivity. Never. It makes you truly pay for your decisions.

I can only hope they do this with the sequel.

Edit: Changed thread title, too spoilery.

Well I try ed all the path in game and yea I felt the same way when I found out they hung her

don't you just love it when a game not Black and White *Winks*

[Vilgefortze]

@Seeker
Maybe, it's all black. It's all evil. You simply have to choose the lesser one, or the one you think is the lesser evil.

[slimgrin]

You know, its something to notice I think, that both Rayla and Toruviel are tragic characters, perhaps the most tragic in the game. Rayla gets screwed over no matter what, and her death at the hands of Yeavin....I wanted to strangle that bastard after seeing her fall. It's quite dramatic really, her death scene.

It's going to be hard to top these two women in TW2.

[Pangaea]

Ciri
Yennefer

That would blow them out of the water ;)

[Vilgefortze]

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Ciri
Yennefer

That would blow them out of the water ;)

And Pangaea opens that old can of worms.
* Throws Pangaea behind a cabinet for cover and keeps a lookout for the usual "Saga Haters" to show up*

Keep this up, Mr. Pangaea, and soon we'll have Laurasia and Gondwana lying on opposite ends of the forum for me to pick up and stitch back together.

[Seeker]

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You know, its something to notice I think, that both Rayla and Toruviel are tragic characters, perhaps the most tragic in the game. Rayla gets screwed over no matter what, and her death at the hands of Yeavin....I wanted to strangle that bastard after seeing her fall. It's quite dramatic really, her death scene.
It's going to be hard to top these two women in TW2.

have notice that too they are tragic characters

@ Vilgefortze  what I meant was that this game is far from Black and White
TW is a very dark game and yes I agree it more to do with the lesser of two evils and sometimes both evils are the same in the long run
Still this is one of the few game that I have played that brings out so much emotion that for sure

[Vilgefortze]

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Still this is one of the few game that I have played that brings out so much emotion that for sure

Can't argue with that.

[3DMaster]

The thing is, I've never seen the Order kill any innocents, human or non-human it made no difference. Hell, even in the confusion of an uprising in the middle of Old Vizima battle ground, they still don't hurt any non-humans that aren't Squirrels; not even mistakenly. Any claim made earlier about the Order killing civilians I didn't bother believing seeing that. That is ffing impressive, the Order are impressively trained and have iron self-control.

In contrast, Toruviel, even after claiming she could see peace between humans and non-humans happily slaughtered innocents, innocents that had nothing against the elves, that offered to help them with anything they could spare and the elves turned them down. Even those humans they killed.

The Order discriminates, they took blacksmith anvils from a dwarven blacksmit, but come on, look at the state the world is in; monsters everywhere Squirrels attacking to boot. A government arm in such state, hopefully temporarily, takes stuff away from some people so they can defend ALL people. However, killing innocent dwarves and elves? I haven't seen them do it even once. Hell, Siegfried had trouble killing actual violent, killing Squirrels, just because they weren't well armed and armored.

Result: as far as I'm concerned, the Order is lesser of two evils, FAR lesser of two evils.

Of course, me, I wanted Geralt to try and convince Siegfried to usurp control of the Order, and get him and Yeavinn to work together in building a world truly equal for all. Remove the king from his throne and put Adda on it, as a human with some Striga traits remaining, she'd be both human and non-human at the same time; a ruler who could bridge the gap between the two sides.

Never got the opportunity though, anywhere.

[Guy N'wah]

Something Vilgefortze quoted earlier in this thread is very much to the point here,

"Only Evil and Greater Evil exist and beyond them, in the shadows, lurks True Evil. True Evil, Geralt, is something you can barely imagine, even if you believe nothing can still surprise you. And sometimes True Evil seizes you by the throat and demands that you choose between it and another.... lesser evils exist, but we can't choose them. Only True Evil can force us to such a choice." ["The Lesser Evil", from Last Wish]

I think the question of the Scoia'tael or the Order being the "lesser [or greater] evil" is, in a perspective that you can only gain by playing through the game, one that will vanish.

But no matter what her crimes, the way they treated Toruviel "shouldn't happen to a dog."

[slimgrin]

And yet White Rayla didn't deserve to be sniped from the shadows. I hated Yeavinn for that. Then she was turned into a zombie.

Who really got the bum deal? This to me was the toughest dilemma in the game.