[slimgrin]

My second play through. This game continues to amaze. White Rayla is awesome, and positively ruthless.

But they hung her, they hung Toruviel - my first time siding with the Order. My jaw was literally hanging. I have never played a game with this level of reactivity. Never. It makes you truly pay for your decisions.

I can only hope they do this with the sequel.

Edit: Changed thread title, too spoilery.

[Corylea]

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But they hung her, they hung Toruviel - my first time siding with the Order. My jaw was literally hanging. I have never played a game with this level of reactivity. Never. It makes you truly pay for your decisions.

I can only hope they do this with the sequel.

Wow.  I've never sided with the Order.  (I've taken the Neutral path and the Scoia'tael path, but I just can't make myself side with the Church of the Eternal Flame.)  I didn't realize that they actually HANGED Toruviel.  In the Scoia'tael path, White Rayla is killed, but she's killed in battle; they don't string her up.

*shudder*

Yeah, you know the game is well done when I adore the game but there's a path through it that I don't want to play, because I don't want to do that to myself.  Mark of a masterpiece!

[e-ahmet]

Have they really hung them? I don't remember what happened to Toruviel. It feels like ages I played siding Order. Or did you mean that developers made them die/killed in the story by saying they hung them?

[slimgrin]

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Have they really hung them? I don't remember what happened to Toruviel. It feels like ages I played siding Order. Or did you mean that developers made them die/killed in the story by saying they hung them?

White Rayla hangs her. White Rayla does not like elves. Toruviel was apparently raped by Rayla's troops as well, I didn't catch that part. Damn, that is brutal.

[Vilgefortze]

yep. Rayla talks about handing Toruviel to her men who had their way with her before they hang her. Brutal indeed.

But I guess the hanging came as a sweet release for her after the previous ordeal.

[Drag0ntamer]

Glad I sided with the non humans then. The hanging is sad, but the fact they raped her first is even worse.

[eskiMoe]

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yep. Rayla talks about handing Toruviel to her men who had their way with her before they hang her. Brutal indeed.

But I guess the hanging came as a sweet release for her after the previous ordeal.

One of the reasons why I will never play the human path again.. Those bastards!

[Vilgefortze]

@eskiMoe
Each path has merits and demerits. The squirrels aren't angelic either. A revolution does not run on empty stomachs. It was clearly stated that Nilfgaardians funded the squirrel uprising to use them as cheap mercs to weaken the Northern kingdoms.
To their credit, the squirrels killed innocents and torched villages freely,to appease their Nilfgaardian patrons.

Neutrality should be what a witcher swears by. My personal opinion, but one I've come to realize through multiple playthroughs.

[eskiMoe]

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@eskiMoe
Each path has merits and demerits. The squirrels aren't angelic either. A revolution does not run on empty stomachs. It was clearly stated that Nilfgaardians funded the squirrel uprising to use them as cheap mercs to weaken the Northern kingdoms.
To their credit, the squirrels killed innocents and torched villages freely,to appease their Nilfgaardian patrons.

Neutrality should be what a witcher swears by. My personal opinion, but one I've come to realize through multiple playthroughs.

All that is true but Toruviel was a character that I really liked in the game and I hated what happened to her when I played the game's order/human path.. Both the order and the squirrels have a lot of blood on their hands but I just felt so repulsed about what they did to Toruviel. It's just so sick and twisted, not just brutal, u know?

[Vilgefortze]

Well...what can you say. From what I heard/read, it's actually practiced (sexual acts prior to executions) in real wars.

Nothing's ever fair in love or war. But then, all is. :(

[eskiMoe]

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Well...what can you say. From what I heard/read, it's actually practiced (sexual acts prior to executions) in real wars.

Yeah, true.. :/

[Drag0ntamer]

The squirrels did kill innocents, however they did not kill children and I would like to think they were above raping their prisoners or victims. I know things like this happen in real life and in wars past, which is what makes this game so gritty and realistic. It doesn't shy from the dark side of things. Either way, I will never side with the order as the things they do are horrible in my opinion. I chose the lesser evil, which is what must be done sometimes in my opinion.

[Vilgefortze]

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I chose the lesser evil, which is what must be done sometimes in my opinion.

*Vilgefortze takes a volume from the nearest shelf,carries it to the armchair by the fire and starts reading*

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'Geralt,' she said, 'did Stregobor ask you to kill me?'
Yes. He believed it was the lesser evil.'
'Can I believe you refused him, as you have me?'
You can.'
'Why?'
'Because I don't believe in a lesser evil.'
Renfri smiled faintly, an ugly grimace in the yellow candlelight.
'You don't believe in it, you say. Well you're right, in a way. Only Evil and Greater Evil exist
and beyond them, in the shadows, lurks True Evil. True Evil, Geralt, is something you can
barely imagine, even if you believe nothing can still surprise you. And sometimes True Evil
seizes you by the throat and demands that you choose between it and another, slightly lesser,
Evil.'
'What's your goal here, Renfri?
'Nothing. I've had a bit to drink and I'm philosophising, I'm looking for general truths. And
I've found one: lesser evils exist, but we can't choose them. Only True Evil can force us to
such a choice. Whether we like it or not.'

-"The Lesser Evil", The Last Wish- Andrzej Sapkowski

*closes the book and walks away*

[slimgrin]

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The squirrels did kill innocents, however they did not kill children and I would like to think they were above raping their prisoners or victims. I know things like this happen in real life and in wars past, which is what makes this game so gritty and realistic. It doesn't shy from the dark side of things. Either way, I will never side with the order as the things they do are horrible in my opinion. I chose the lesser evil, which is what must be done sometimes in my opinion.

You're right, it's Toruviel and the elves who casually murder villagers in Chapter 4. It was when she threatened to kill children, however, that got the Order's attention. Enter White Rayla, one of my favorite characters. The way I understand it, she's just a mercenary hired by the order, so the Order is not directly responsible for what happened to Toruviel. And remember, Rayla was previously tortured by elves - she's just plain ruthless and has a reason to be so. Did the order know this? Or was the Grand Master pulling strings to hire her? I honestly can't remember, maybe I missed something.

It's this kind of realism and plot subtly that is mostly lost on Bioware and other game developers. This is where the Witcher excels.

[Vilgefortze]

There were many mercs from the saga. The fact that Rayla was chosen in the game shows that the Devs (and Aldesberg) is aware of her past.

While it's true most Bioware games lack the subtlety TW has, their games are not completely without merit either. Generally they do not have a rich saga to base their characters on. Their storylines, therefore, are drab in comparison.

Ah...I remember the time I stated this in the Bioware forums, young and naive as I was. Got flamed to hell and the thread got deleted too. ***** hypocrites.

[slimgrin]

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Ah...I remember the time I stated this in the Bioware forums, young and naive as I was. Got flamed to hell and the thread got deleted too. ***** hypocrites.

I'm still stating it over there, time and again. I don't care who it pisses off, it's true. I'm sure the writers at Bioware have a dartboard in their office with my avatar pinned to center.

[Vilgefortze]

Ah. But you're probably stating it in a more "civil" fashion.

I lack that. ;) It wasn't abusive, but my post might've been inflammatory to Bioware fan(atics).

[Drag0ntamer]

@Slimgrin: Yes, they did kill innocent villagers, however Toruviel even stated that they do not kill children, they were using it as a threat to halt the Order's advances. I know of Rayla's past, but I does not excuse her actions. She of all people knows what it is like to endure torture and should be able to relate to the thing's Toruviel undoubtedly endured.

[Vilgefortze]

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@Slimgrin: Yes, they did kill innocent villagers, however Toruviel even stated that they do not kill children, they were using it as a threat to halt the Order's advances. I know of Rayla's past, but I does not excuse her actions. She of all people knows what it is like to endure torture and should be able to relate to the thing's Toruviel undoubtedly endured.

Ah, but you should try multiple playthroughs to get the whole picture. IF you stay neutral, Rayla doesn't join the attack on the village. She stays on the river bank like she promised, but the rest of the soldiers attack. You can't judge a character from only one perspective.
Another thing: You cannot judge all squirrels from Toruviel's actions. She was once vicious and sadistic. She was shown not all humans are the same by Geralt in the past, but she still joined in the vicious slaughter of innocents. She was defeated and wounded. It was humans (again) who aided her escape ans healed her. Only after that did her outlook change, and she became more reasonable. We have no reason to believe other squirrels gave up their vicious ways when she did. So if Toruviel says she doesn't want to kill children, it doesn't mean other won't either. If fact there are ample instances in the saga where the squirrels are more than happy to kill children. They try to kill Ciri, do they not, even though she was a child?

Sad truth: No one is innocent.Question is, do you call supporting one of the guilty parties (to minimize deaths) the lesser evil, or do you think not aiding any guilty party in their vile quest, even if it costs more lives, is the lesser evil. It's all about the lesser evil, isn't it?

[Drag0ntamer]

That's what makes this game so great. Each of us is allowed to decide what the lesser evil is.